View Full Version : Intamin vs. B&M
This is sure to spark a huge debate, and instead of running off topic in the Maverick Discussion thread, I decided to make this. I will start by saying I am a B&M fan, much more so than Intamin. I personally prefer intense, smooth rides such as B:TR clones, RR, Tatsu, and Raging Bull. While they do have some forceless coasters, to an extent, ie Silver Bullet, they are still fun rides.
Intamin is cheaper, which makes it more affordable for parks, but are also very unreliable. All the Acceleration coasters, to my knowledge, have had more downtime than they should. While they offer fun rides, they are not as good as B&M in my opinion. I would rather ride an average sized B&M coaster with tons of forces, than be on a pure speed and floater airtime coaster, Millennium Force.
The two companies are clearly one and two in the world, its just what you think is better, and in my case that is B&M.
Michael
11-02-2007, 03:47 PM
Oh, I'm giving this about a week till someone gets banned. j/k Remember the days in the Cedar Point thread Sirloin? ahhh, good times... :cool:
Personally, if any one cares, here is how I look at the whole situation;
B&M is a company based around the traditional coaster. Now don't get me wrong, there are some that are pretty exotic like Tatsu, Alpengeist, and Behemoth. But if you take a step back and look at it, B&M's are very traditional coasters. They try to be the coaster that everyone talks about. They make the *dare I say* regular designs, considering they typically go by a general "rule" for layouts. (i.e. their inverts typically have a twisting drop, loop, then a secondary inversion, and then in the middle of the layout have a MCBR followed by one or two more inversions.) See? They make the coasters that people expect, to a degree. And that'why they are so great. B&M takes the most practical approach at everything, and they end up with some of the hottest rides on the plannet as well.
Intamin is a totally different story. When I look at an Intamin, almost never will I see two similar designs. Every one had a purpose, and a radical one at that. They like to take that leap that makes people notice them (i.e. TTD, Millennium, KK, Maverick, Exped G-F, Speedmonster, ect.). They also go for less traditional layouts, bizarre inversions, and off-beat ride pacing. (very unlike B&M). That's what really defines Intamin, is their pacing and ride effect. They express an idea, something that hasn't been done before, and expand on it. Whether you like them or hate them, Intamin's will always get the most attention. It may not be deserved or wanted, but with rides like Maverick, KK, and Furios baco, it get's heads turning.
Where both rides are similar: Smoothness. Unlike companies such as S&S, Arrow, and Vekoma, B&M and Intamin both strive for perfection. High grade designs that are so incredibly planned out, smooth, and efficient. Both have the same "A grade" qualities to them, they are looked upon with respect for their architecture, design, and construction.
Mike summed it up for me pretty much.
B&M never pushes the envelope. The reason they are "so reliable" is because they never try new things. They just recycle the things that they use from previous models.
Intamin makes new and innovative designs and coaster models that are out of the ordinary. That is why I like Intamin. So many different models, and they are willing to step out of the box and do something innovative.
I would rather have a world filled with Intamins. They may break down once in a while, but at least I'd have some variation in my coasters.
B&M never pushes the envelope. The reason they are "so reliable" is because they never try new things. They just recycle the things that they use from previous models.
Ah, but B&M pushed the limits back when the company first started. The Dive Machine, Invert, Standup, Floorless, and even their classic sit-down pushed the limit when first revealed. Every single one of them is a great feat of engineering. Those of you who think that a Dive Machine is a "cheap gimmick" need to realize that it took a lot of brilliant engineering to pull that off. The bizzare trains, the vertical drops, everything, it's absolutely brilliant.
And I have to disagree with you Mike, Intamin has made some shakey coasters in its day, of course some could argue that B&M has done the same. What B&M does is take their own classic designs and perfects them. This may not always win them brownie points with enthusiasts, but a fantastic, reliable coaster that guests love will keep parks happy all the time. While their designs seem repetitive to us enthusiasts, to the General Public, the people they are really designing for love them. I'd be hardpressed to find a guest who doesn't lvoe a smooth coaster.
As most of you know I prefer the sleek and smooth designs of B&M to the jaw-dropping, insanity that Intamin practices. While the intensity that Intamin has surpasses that of the B&M's I have experienced, I'd rather have a less intense coaster that's nearly always open, as opposed to a great coaster that may be closed half the day.
SnooSnoo
11-02-2007, 05:47 PM
Millennium Force is butter smoothThats a lie and you know it. I've came off of MF with a headache from the rattling a few times. In the front of the trains.. yes.. smooth.. but if you venture in the back.. you'll get a noticeably rougher ride.. especially on Yellow.
And don't you DARE accuse B&M of being weak. B-TR, Montu, Alpengeist, Kumba, Kraken (up front), and many others put alot of the Intamin's I've been on to shame.Did I say anywhere that B&M was weak? No. Look at my Top 10... half of them are some of the best B&M's on the planet, all of which were incredible. Just the fact that, on average, if you compare the overall intensity of Intamins to B&M's, Intamin would win. El Toro is the best example.
Dude, Voyage was the single most intense ride I have ever been on. I thought it was one of the smoothest coasters I have been on, and I could not get enough of it. 20 some night time laps in a row were the best rides I have EVER gotten on any single coaster.Yes.. VERY intense.. but unless you don't feel pain, you would know Voyage is very rough. In fact, you are the FIRST person who I've talked to who's been on it to call it smooth. I rode that bad boy 10 times, all over the train, and came off with a headache quite a few times.
I consider myself a bit more sensitive to roughness then most, but even my companion I was with called it VERY rough.
Yes.. amazing.. as my final ride was some of the best airtime i've ever experienced, but rough none the less.
PS: Ride Toro, which makes Voyage's intensity look like Mantis.. ;)
Oh... and btw... not all b&m's are smooth. sorry.Where are you kids getting this from? Nowhere did I say all B&M's were smooth. I'ma CP fanboy buddy.. I've been on Mantis.. thats all you need to say.
ON AVERAGE, if you take all the roughness of Intamin and B&M.. B&M is smoother overall.
Come on now guys..
[Moved from the Maverick Topic]
Thrill Reconnoiter
11-02-2007, 05:48 PM
Sorry Ryan.. I was typing while you were posting.. if you want it gone, i'll delete it.Just moved it here, problem solved.
Ah, but B&M pushed the limits back when the company first started. The Dive Machine, Invert, Standup, Floorless, and even their classic sit-down pushed the limit when first revealed. Every single one of them is a great feat of engineering.
Just to add to that, every single one of those still operates RELIABLY to this day.
Since I like fueling fire I'm going to comment on people calling B&M forceless. B&M has five "intense" rides higher in the '06 poll before Intamin's first "intense" ride.
SnooSnoo
11-02-2007, 05:51 PM
Heres the deal.. IMO of course.
B&M have good rides, have had decent innovation, but never produce anything too spectacular. Most of their rides fall into the 5-9 range of awesomeness.
Intamin have amazing rides.. then horrible rides.. have had higher innovation then B&M, but have had much more problems. Their rides fall into the extremes of INSANE to WTF?
To put it simply..
B&M produces the reliable, milder thrill rides.
Intamin produces the less reliable, insane thrill rides.
Where are you kids getting this from? Nowhere did I say all B&M's were smooth. I'ma CP fanboy buddy.. I've been on Mantis.. thats all you need to say.
That wasn't directed to you, just so you know. I'm just amused by certain people on these forums. ;)
PS: Ride Toro, which makes Voyage's intensity look like Mantis.. ;)
Hopefully I'll be able to next summer. G-force G-force G-force!!!
But as for now, Voyage remains my #1. :)
EDIT:
Well, once they've been butchered by Cedar Point they aren't!
How so?
Heres the deal.. IMO of course.
B&M have good rides, have had decent innovation, but never produce anything too spectacular. Most of their rides fall into the 5-9 range of awesomeness.
So you are saying the engineering behind the Flyers and Floorless dive machines are not too spectacular? Last I checked, when 4 seats hang off the edge of the chase, forgive me if I called it the wrong thin, that is an engineering feet. Also having an entire train be able to swing like a door hinge up so it hangs on the track, pretty revolutionary in my book. Look at the new trains on Behemoth. Those are pretty unique! Every seat will be completely different for the most part.
Intamin have amazing rides.. then horrible rides.. have had higher innovation then B&M, but have had much more problems. Their rides fall into the extremes of INSANE to WTF?
MF is insane just because the height the rest of the ride it's like, where is my pillow I am ready to take a nap this is so smooth. Intamin took the 4D design from Arrow and made it so the cars wouldn't rotate. Revolutionary? Not as much. Sure the Acceleration coasters are extremely innovative, but the fact that they still have so many problems takes away from their greatness.
B&M produces the reliable, milder thrill rides.
Intamin produces the less reliable, insane thrill rides.
I consider old school B&M Inverts to be the most intense coasters out there. Millennium Force is forceless, and therefore loses its insaneness in my eyes. TTD is insane, as well as KK, but they are virtually the same exact ride, and offer good forces, but reliability is a huge factor, a ride is no good if it does not operate half the time in the first season of operation.
SnooSnoo
11-02-2007, 07:31 PM
So you are saying the engineering behind the Flyers and Floorless dive machines are not too spectacular? Last I checked, when 4 seats hang off the edge of the chase, forgive me if I called it the wrong thin, that is an engineering feet. Also having an entire train be able to swing like a door hinge up so it hangs on the track, pretty revolutionary in my book. Look at the new trains on Behemoth. Those are pretty unique! Every seat will be completely different for the most part.
I meant.. no rides are too spectacular. Other then a lone few, my Top 10 + Hulk/Kumba..the rest of the B&M's i've been on have been mediocre at best.
MF is insane just because the height the rest of the ride it's like, where is my pillow I am ready to take a nap this is so smooth. Intamin took the 4D design from Arrow and made it so the cars wouldn't rotate. Revolutionary? Not as much. Sure the Acceleration coasters are extremely innovative, but the fact that they still have so many problems takes away from their greatness.
Risk comes with extreme innovation. Look at Arrow. Yes, Intamin didn't do much with their 4D, but other then COPY X's design, what can you do?
Other then KK/TTD.. I really haven't heard of ANY accelerator have any problems.
I consider old school B&M Inverts to be the most intense coasters out there. Millennium Force is forceless, and therefore loses its insaneness in my eyes. TTD is insane, as well as KK, but they are virtually the same exact ride, and offer good forces, but reliability is a huge factor, a ride is no good if it does not operate half the time in the first season of operation.
MF/TTD/KK are piss poor excuses for examples for Intamin.
How about.. lets go with.. El Toro, Superman: Ride of Steel.. and.. Maverick.
Hmm.. my Top 3? Well would ya look at that. Amazing rollercoasters which, again, make B&M's best examples, including their older Inverts, look like crap.
Thrill Reconnoiter
11-02-2007, 07:45 PM
^Only one of your top three actually has some g-forces, and I doubt Maverick is cracking Nemesis, maybe even Katun, this year.
B&M, as Jake said earlier, really pushes the envelope in a certain way, through the Invert, Dive Machine, etc. The Invert has become one of the most successful roller coaster models to date, and I'd say most people's top ten include at least one. Dive Machines, from all comments about them I have heard, are a huge hit. I'll bring to mind the 'Florida vs. the World' thread. Look at all those B&M's! One can obviously argue that Intamin is more innovative, but in my opinion, they are simply innovative in a different way than B&M. Intamin has ventured into the world of launched coasters, and although they are still settling in, they have really led the way in that realm. B&M, however has been going in a completely different direction. The introduction of the Dive Machine,the Floorless Dive Machine cars, and of course the Flying coaster prove the company is a leading one.
Both companies are innovative, but the innovations Intamin makes are more daring and adventurous. A hydraulic launch at this point is not reliable to the point where it belongs in Florida. However, Flyers from B&M have a much higher reliability. They utilize many of the same systems older rides from the company do. In fact, its basically a new age inverted coaster. Still, the technology has been perfected past the technology of hydraulic launches. Every morning I go to Magic Mountain, Tatsu is open. But Xcelerator at KBF has opened late almost every day I've been to Knott's since the ride was introduced to the park. Top Thrill Dragster wasn't much better the days I went to Cedar Point.
My main point so far is that both companies are innovative, but in different ways. Intamin is slightly more adventurous as they chose to take on launches, but B&M might have taken the better path. It's too early to tell, but here's what I mean.
I talked about reliability two paragraphs up. If you were the owner of the park with a certain rider throughput in mind, would you go with the more reliable or less reliable ride? There are 66 operating B&M coasters according to RCDB, starting with Iron Wolf in Six Flags Great America. That was built in 1990. Having ridden it, I can say that it definately doesn't give Bolliger and Mabillard a good look. But, in five years, Batman: The Ride, Kumba, Nemesis, Raptor, to name a few. Those rides continue to be among the top ranking coasters in the world, save B:TR, although it is one of the most mass produced coasters ever. During the company's beginning years, Inverts were obviously their forte. Skip forward a few years through some more great coasters and we find ourselves in 2005, SheiKra's opening year....yet another top ride. From SheiKra to present we have witnessed the construction of two Goliath's, Black Mamba, Griffon, and more. Next summer we'll be greeted with Behemoth and Led Zeppelin The Ride, two amazing looking rides if I may say so myself, among a few others. That's B&M...solid coasters year after year, their originals still at the top of the charts with their newest creations.
Now onto Intamin. Intamin has 76 operating coasters, more than B&M, but the earlier rides hardly as impressive. Do the names Jr. Gemini, Disaster Transport, Runaway Reptar ring a bell? Hardly as impressive as B&M's first creations. American Eagle and Indiana Jones are the two names I give them much credit for as far as their earlier rides. Of course, we must remember that Intamin is a much older company, with Jr. Gemini opening in 1979. However, Superman: The Escape, whose name is known by all enthusiasts, opened in 1997 - after the huge success of B&M's original Inverts. From then on we can see that Intamin does push that envelope to in an extreme fashion. We see Volcano: The Blast Coaster, Superman: Ride of Steel, Millennium Force, Expedition GeForce, Top Thrill Dragster, Storm Runner, Rita, El Toro, Kirnu, Speed Monster, Furious Baco, Desert Race, and more within the past ten years. All these rides listed are pretty amazing from experience and from what I've heard.
B&M undoubtedly outperformed Intamin in earlier years, but the question comes to the past ten or so. Intamin really came into play after Superman: The Escape opened, and they haven't let up since. Some of B&M's new rides have obviously been described as 'forceless', whereas Intamins rarely are described this way.
How do we compare the two in the past ten years? We can't possibly compare coasters to each others, as the companies' rides are so different. I hate to use this phrase as it has been overused lately, but it's like comparing apples to oranges. Millennium Force and Apollo's Chariot obviously have similar aspects and purposes, but the rides are just so different it is hard to compare. One thing we can do, however, is compare different aspects important when rating companies and rides. Things like airtime and intensity are two examples.
As far as Intensity, I think Intamin has B&M beat. Their newest rides definately take riders to the extreme, where B&M's have more of a flowing movement to them.
Although I haven't been on an SROS, I have been on a few B&M Mega coasters, and must say they are simply outstanding. Millennium Force's airtime seems to have the same floater idea as B&M's airtime rides, but I personally prefer B&M's floater. So, I'd say the companies are about even in that case. However, Intamin utilizes ejector airtime a whole lot more then B&M, putting them ahead in that regard.
Other then KK/TTD.. I really haven't heard of ANY accelerator have any problems. Xcelerator has problems all the time as I stated previously. Rita had a problem while I was at Alton. As far as risk coming with innovation, B&M seems to get rid of all risk with their idea of innovation.
I am undecided as to which company I prefer, so there's no point looking for bias statements in my post. I think about this a lot, and I want to have a preference, but I just don't. I can say that I am an avid fan of B&M inverts though, and they make up two of my top five coasters (Nemesis being in spot #1).
Xcelerator does have problems. Last summer it was closed for nearly a month and a half with a broken launch cable. I remember when Stealth at Thorpe Park opened it also featured a few problems.
SnooSnoo, someones PERSONAL top 10 is completely different than say Mitch Hawkers Top 10. In my Top Ten, I have a mixture of both simply because I love the two acceleration coasters I have been on, TTD and Xcel. And when I use MF, TTD, and KK as example, those are three of Intamin's most famous coasters. El Toro is basically a steel coaster. I consider a wooden coaster all wood, but that is for another debate completely. No doubt in my mind that coaster would rank very high on my list, but I am pretty sure Maverick would not be in my top 3 coasters, just because I prefer longer layouts, constant forces, and helixes, ie a B&M hyper coaster. Black Mamba in Germany looks like one of the best coasters in the world, as does Expedition GeForce. Each company has there crown jewels, but it is the lower coasters that should be talked about in reference to a company. Iron Wolf is not a fun ride, either is Disaster Transport. But look at the success of B&M inverts, B:TR is everywhere in the world, 14 of them to be exact. Any coaster with 13 clones of it says something about the company that made it.
MaverickManJZ
11-02-2007, 10:51 PM
Intamin gets the check for airtime. Steel or wood. Now, they have tried to do mass inversions, but I heard Colossos and other clones have aged poorly. Two very different, yet simply amazing companies.
Fave B&M - Top Gun: The Jet Coaster
Intamin - Maverick
Intamin gets the check for airtime. Steel or wood. Now, they have tried to do mass inversions, but I heard Colossos and other clones have aged poorly. Two very different, yet simply amazing companies.
Yes, Colossus has aged very poorly. The ride is incredibly rough...although it looks cool, it's not the great ride it once was (or could have been, I never rode it when it opened). B&M most definately wins as far as mass inversions. Tight inversions, those are a different story...
sirloin
11-02-2007, 11:11 PM
Ooh! Yet another massive debate thread! Kaching!
I'll discuss Intamin first. In my personal opinion, Intamin pushes the envelope alot more than B&M does. Superman-The Escape, Millennium Force, Top Thrill Dragster, and Kingda Ka are just a few examples. Many of their rides are of very unique styles. They dabble into many different styles and sizes of coasters, from family coasters all the way to stratacoasters. I think their megacoasters are their forte, though I think their hydraulic coasters are also quite a force to be reckoned with. I think some of them suffer from a little rattle, and maybe don't ride quite as well as B&Ms, but I'd hardly call them rough. Kingda Ka is, to a degree, but that's just one ride. I'm not sure what it's problem is, because I can ride the mighty Top Thrill Dragster and get just as smooth a ride as its cobalt blue brother located nearby, which is a VERY smooth ride in my opinion.
I think the one sensation Intamin excels in, more than any other manufacturer, is exhilaration. I've not found a company whose rides so consistently deliver the rush Intamin's major coaster installations do. Much of that is pacing, which Intamin's all over contain a great deal of. Millennium Force is the perfect example of that. That ride is haulin' from the top of the drop right into the brakes. However, my favorite Intamin is SFNE's Superman-Ride of Steel, as it tosses in some of the most wicked ejector air ever dished out. It's just a nasty beast from start to finish.
I do have several complaints about them, though. It seems to me that they have to go back and constantly fix or upgrade their rides. They don't always get it right the first time, and it happens alot more frequently than it needs to. The impulses were problematic, Volcano was problematic, the hydraulic coasters were problematic, etc., etc. It is my personal belief that if we can put something in the air that can go twice the speed of sound and not get spotted on radar while dropping a bomb that follows a laser, we should be able to design a hydraulic launch system. I think they don't follow through with their engineering as much as they should sometimes. I think they don't always take the time to evaluate just how reliable a system of theirs is before offering it up for production. As far as I'm concerned, their wooden coasters are about the first ride style they've really engineered properly since Superman took to the skies over Darien Lake back in 1999.
Now let me talk about B&M. B&M have been about comfort and overall quality since day one. Heck, even Iron Wolf was considered hot stuff back when it opened in 1990, and some people still say it's a wonderful ride. Yes, the standup has evolved since then, but it defied the day's tradition. B&M engineered their elements for intensity, but also for comfort and smoothness. They've only gotten better at it over the years.
Their capacity is another selling point. My goodness, can those rides put people through. Why should I have to wait 2 hours for an Intamin when I can wait 30 minutes to ride a B&M of even higher quality? I know Intamins do have capacity, but how often do they achieve it? That's one thing that really stands out about B&M: for all the apparent complexity, they're actually very basic rides. The restraints are a cake walk to check, no matter what style of ride it is. They're also simple to run, so no overly extensive training is required to work one.
I don't think there's any one sensation they deliver better than any other. While I do agree there are many similarities from one B&M to the next, there are also many differences as well. I mean, let's even talk about floorlesses alone for the moment. No one ride does everything better than all of the others. Each ride has its selling point. Dominator takes the cake for intensity of all the ones I've been on. Superman Krypton Coaster is the winner in the exhilaration department (probably the only time you'll ever see me hand that distinction to a ride that doesn't have the best pacing for its type). It was built with the cliffs in mind, and that drop off the cliffs (the second one, believe it or not, which comes after the loop) is righteous. Kraken is the most solid design of any of them, not really being the best in any one area but doing all of them fantastically. Hydra takes the cake for being different, using the terrain to its advantage and delivering some really weird and enjoyable inversions.
What it all boils down to is quality. If I ride a B&M and its not the greatest ride I've ever ridden, I'm not disappointed. Superman Ultimate Flight at Six Flags Great Adventure is far from the best coaster ever, but it is good solid fun, so I'm not disappointed. B&Ms aren't quite marketed the way Intamins are. The company doesn't see the need to push the envelope in order to be the best. Intamins suffer from that, in my opinion. They feel they need to go completely nuts and deliver these outrageous experiences to be number one. You know what? If it works for them, I say go for it. My only warning to them is to be careful to make sure their rides work the way they're supposed to so I don't have to be petrified that I'll go to a park to ride one, only to see it down (which happened twice at SFNE this year, but wasn't quite the loss for me as I got it the first time and those trips cost alot less than you might think for me).
As for B&M, they just want to give you a good ride. If it's the best ride you've ever ridden, great, but if you simply thought it was alot of fun and you want to do it again, then they've done their job and they're content with that. I don't worry that I'll miss out on a B&M because it's broken. Every last one of them is a good solid thriller, and the fact that the Dive Machine is now catching on and there are more megas out there, I can enjoy a wider variety of experiences on them. Yeah, in many ways they're similar, but much of that similarity comes in the fact that each one is engineered to perfection. They want it to be fun and they want it to work.
In the end, I give my vote to B&M since they consistently please me and they're well engineered. While I think Intamin is the only manufacturer who creates rides you have to be completely nuts to ride, and I love many of those rides, I think B&M takes a somewhat better approach.
I wouldn't do without either one, though. I think that a good blend of rides from both is the best approach to take. They co-exist better than they compete.
Comet
11-02-2007, 11:19 PM
In my opinion, I rather ride a good Intamin, and if I owned a park I rather have a good B&M.
I think that Intamin has better rides, but B&M beats them in everything else (capacity, downtime, etc...).
Thrill Reconnoiter
11-02-2007, 11:31 PM
Just thought I'd ask everyone to take a serious minute and ask themselves this question: How innovative is Intamin with the train? You can't say impulse, because a fixated invert train was copied from B&M. Now take out the Invert in B&M's. They still have Stand-ups, Sit-downs, Flyers, Dive Machines.
Intamin is the "father company" for B&M. Back in the mid 1980s, Walter Bolliger and Claude Mabillard worked for Intamin, with their first project being Z-force (Now Flashback - SFMM) at SFGAm. When the two guys split off to found their own company, they took a piece of Intamin with them. That is why some of the coasters built by Intamin during the 1980s are often confused with B&Ms (Flashback, Batman the Escape). When Iron Wolf opened in 1990, B&M was still new and is why it is so much different from later B&Ms. No GP at SFMM would ever be able to comprehend the fact that the POS Flashback was designed by the same guys who gave them their masterpiece Tatsu. Without Intamin, there would be no B&M. Just something to think about.
My vote will go to Intamin for this debate. Despite their bad reputation for downtime, they have always tried new ideas with coasters, whereas B&M (as already mentioned) maintains more consistency which leads to better reliability. Sorry if I sound redundant, but it's honestly a tough vote and the company that started it all deserves the credit. ;)
The father of coasters as we know them is Arrow, hands down, in my book.
In response to Ryan's post.
Lets see... we have sit-downs.. and um, sit-downs... and, OH! Sit-downs ;).
Just thought I'd ask everyone to take a serious minute and ask themselves this question: How innovative is Intamin with the train? You can't say impulse, because a fixated invert train was copied from B&M. Now take out the Invert in B&M's. They still have Stand-ups, Sit-downs, Flyers, Dive Machines.
However Intamin has introduced LSM's, the hydraulic launch mechanism, cable lift mechanism, prefabricated wooden track, and the first coasters over 300 and 400 feet.
B&M may offer some unique trains, but Intamin has been far more innovative, as far as technological advancement goes.
-Alex
^ Of course half of those advancements have been either extremely expensive, or un-reliable, or in some cases, both!
But without them..where would the industry be at? Of course when you push the limit, theres going to be set backs, like unreliability. At least for the first few years, while the kinks are worked out. At least Intamin has enough balls to actually develop new technology.
I'm sorry, but I'd take technological advancement over new train designs any day.
-Alex
Thrill Reconnoiter
11-03-2007, 02:52 AM
However Intamin has introduced LSM's, the hydraulic launch mechanism, cable lift mechanism, prefabricated wooden track, and the first coasters over 300 and 400 feet.
B&M may offer some unique trains, but Intamin has been far more innovative, as far as technological advancement goes.
-Alex
You've got to remember launches were already around a couple decades before Intamin. Cable lifts aren't that different from the cable use Schwarzkopf's shuttle loops had. The basic principal of plugnplay technology goes back to the 20's-though I think Holzbau-Cordes had a hand in Intamin's prefab (might be wrong).
I don't know how 'contributive' the height barrier is, because most parks can't even build that high and no park has enough parcel to make a formidable layout (more than a tophat).
EDIT: I think Tomorrowland Transit Authority used LIMs, not LSMs.
MaverickManJZ
11-03-2007, 12:07 PM
Intamin's new Ball/Zakk Spin coasters look really incredible. There is something new that will put them to a whole new level of popularity. Some of them are small and could fit in almost any park, and then some parks could get a bigger, better layout with the ride and see how it works out.
sheikra182
11-03-2007, 01:15 PM
^The Ball spins can also be used for a park that is being cheap and does'nt want to pay..... Yep that sounds like a great ride to have in the park. I would so much rather see a good themed Premier than a park go cheap on the Ball Spin.
But anyways, B&M could go compact if they wanted to but the thing is they dont want to for good reasons. B&M likes to give it's riders a long ride. So when they finally get to the ride from the long line tey get a long nice, and smooth ride to make up for that long wait. The shortest B&M is Oblivion I believe. But even though Oblivion is only 1,225FT long in lentgh, it's still a great ride and worth the wait as for some Intamins can be said else due to they are very short.
Michael
11-03-2007, 01:18 PM
^ You do realize most parks are considered "small", and that most parks do not have the budget of say, Busch Gardens? :rolleyes: It's an affordable and great attraction, that's why it was created: for the every-day amusement park.
I don't know if the length of the ride is really determined by the manufacture. I think it has a lot more to do with the budget and space limitations of the park.
In any case, both companies have developed technology in different areas. A high level of reliability and new trains is one way of pushing a technology. So is their high degree of safety. While the launch and everything Intiman has done is another way of pushing technology. They both do it, they just go about it in slightly different ways.
In either case, both companies have helped push the amusement industry further along. I'm sure in the coming year both companies will find new ways to thrill us and push their respective envelopes.
I'm a fan of both of the, because I'm a fan of coasters in general. If you read my site or listen to my podcast, you know that I'm not picky when it comes to rides. I love them for what they are.
But without them..where would the industry be at? Of course when you push the limit, theres going to be set backs, like unreliability. At least for the first few years, while the kinks are worked out. At least Intamin has enough balls to actually develop new technology.
I'm pretty sure it's been five years since Xcelerator was introduced, and the damn thing still hasn't been open on time any of the times I've been there. At least B&M has enough balls to not release a new technology until it's absolutely perfect. Unlike Intiman who seems to enjoy jumping the gun.
sirloin
11-03-2007, 02:49 PM
Jake brings up a good point. Let's talk about flyers. I'm willing to put money down that B&M had been working on flyers for some time before Superman Ultimate Flight and air came to the table. I imagine they started not too long after Vekoma, if they didn't start earlier than that. While at least Superman did have some difficulties at first, yes, it's hardly the problematic machine that the Vekomas were. Those rides are roughly twice as complex as they need to be, and much of their technology had to be modified over the first few seasons. Shoot, when Superman debuted in Illinois and New Jersey, it was almost as good as everything else they've ever built in terms of reliability. Capacity could be better, yes, but then, those rides aren't of the size necessary for three trains.
Intamin has the balls to introduce new technology, yes, but they don't seem to have quite the engineering talent (or patience, I'm not sure which) to make it work. What do I care if a ride has the capability to go 0-120 in 4 seconds if it never works? You could tell me it goes Mach 1, but if it never moves, it's no good to me. All it means is that I can go ride the B&M next door that's been running like a dream for 11 years.
Yeah, B&M doesn't always introduce new technology (save the spinning tire launch, invert, and floorless ;) ), but is it really necessary? Was Superman-The Escape really all that incredible technology-wise? No, because Australia's got the only other one and the hydraulic strata-coasters took over the massive launcher department. Yeah, I think they push the envelope more (which I've said before), but they've yet to really prove that they can do it and do it reliably. New technology doesn't have to come with downtime. The invert and floorless taught us that. It's an Intamin problem, not a new technology problem.
Thrill Reconnoiter
11-03-2007, 04:44 PM
I just wanted to mention that thing we all love.... aiRTIME!
As great as the airtime is on the B&M's, the 'legendary' Intamins always have that point in their layout where you're just blown away. They are great at it, but the one thing I've come to notice, they aren't consistent with it. The B&M hypers have very consistent airtime on their hills, but the Intamins feel like hit-or-miss on different hills. Anyone else notice this?
SnooSnoo
11-03-2007, 08:15 PM
^Agreed.
SnooSnoo, someones PERSONAL top 10 is completely different than say Mitch Hawkers Top 10.
Except.. for the most part, the people I know who've ridden what I've ridden, tend to agree. The best Intamin IS IN FACT better then the best B&M.. anywhere.
Polls can be biased and are mostly crap.. even the best ones. Look at the Golden Tickets? Mitch Hawker isn't gold either.
And when I use MF, TTD, and KK as example, those are three of Intamin's most famous coasters.
Most famous.. so? How about we use the BEST. Just because New York City and Miami are some of the most famous cities in America doesn't mean they are the best, now does it?
El Toro is basically a steel coaster. I consider a wooden coaster all wood, but that is for another debate completely.
Last time I checked, the only steel I saw on El Toro when I rode it was the track. That is a WOODEN coaster buddy. Just because it doesn't molest you physically like The Voyage doesn't mean its not a wooden coaster.
No doubt in my mind that coaster would rank very high on my list, but I am pretty sure Maverick would not be in my top 3 coasters, just because I prefer longer layouts, constant forces, and helixes, ie a B&M hyper coaster.
You shouldn't prejudge. I always loved MF/TTD before I rode Maverick.. then everything changed. A coaster with quality over rules cheap trick coasters any day of the week.
Also.. what constant forces are you talking about on B&M Hypers? As far as I could tell, 3/4 of Nitro was boring crap.. not even worth noting. Apollo's Chariot was a drastic improvement, but still nothing compared to the 'Crown Jewels' like El Toro or Superman.
Black Mamba in Germany looks like one of the best coasters in the world, as does Expedition GeForce. Each company has there crown jewels, but it is the lower coasters that should be talked about in reference to a company. Iron Wolf is not a fun ride, either is Disaster Transport.
You can't always create the biggest and the best every time out can you? It takes improvement over time to create the big, bad *** rides. Plus you noted a generic BOBSLED and the first Stand-up (by B&M that is).. come on now.
But look at the success of B&M inverts, B:TR is everywhere in the world, 14 of them to be exact. Any coaster with 13 clones of it says something about the company that made it.
Hmm..
Vekoma..
Boomerangs: 57 Worldwide
SLC: 27 Worldwide (of the 689m Standard version alone)
Doesn't mean much now does it?
Quality, not quantity dear.
Brandon
11-03-2007, 08:39 PM
^This is coming from someone who has Gwazi Lion and Tiger as his number 1 and 2
Uh... the number on the right shows his rank. Toro 1, Voyage 2, Raven 3.
Last time I checked, the only steel I saw on El Toro when I rode it was the track. That is a WOODEN coaster buddy. Just because it doesn't molest you physically like The Voyage doesn't mean its not a wooden coaster.
Well, wooden coasters have wooden track, my friend.
Polls can be biased and are mostly crap.. even the best ones. Look at the Golden Tickets? Mitch Hawker isn't gold either.
We have to take what we can get. I'll take almost five hundred opinions of companies over just one person's. Mitch's poll obviously can't be 100% correct, but its the best we've got.
Except.. for the most part, the people I know who've ridden what I've ridden, tend to agree. The best Intamin IS IN FACT better then the best B&M.. anywhere.
I respect that you have ridden more coasters than I have, but that doesn't mean what I have to say is bull. I've ridden a hell of a lot of coasters for my age, and it's obvious that its just down to preference. You obviously prefer Intamin. Some people prefer B&M. Something I'd like to hear from you though, is, which company do you think makes the better choices? Intamins according to you are better, but you can't ignore the fact that a lot of their newer launch coasters break down all the time. I'm sure if you were a park owner you'd find a ride from that company less appealing...
As far as your comment about Vekoma's clones, you can't compare them. Batman: The Ride clones placed 59th in Hawker's poll. That is above not only SLC's and Boomerangs and many other B&M's, but also above your dear Intamins Kingda Ka, Stealth, Wicked Twister, Vertical Velocity, Rita, and more...hmm. Notice something? Those are all launchers! Maybe Intamin's advancements weren't good choices on the company's part.
By the way, don't bash Mitch Hawker's poll, because it is the only way for us to be on the same page about the general enthusiast's preferences.
Mike T
11-03-2007, 08:58 PM
Uh... the number on the right shows his rank. Toro 1, Voyage 2, Raven 3.
Since this is turning into such a big deal, I'm sorry to Snoo Snoo for misinterpreting is ballot. I hope you find it in your heart to some how forgive me of my awful mistake. Are you happy now?
Thrill Reconnoiter
11-03-2007, 09:07 PM
By the way, don't bash Mitch Hawker's poll, because it is the only way for us to be on the same page about the general enthusiast's preferences.
Exactly. While the poll may not be to your particular likings, it IS the most accurate way to get a consensus of what the MAJORITY PREFERENCE is.
To say that the rankings are wrong is to say that majority of enthusiasts are wrong.
However, let's try and get back onto B&M/Intamin discussion-we have another thread to converse Mitch's poll.
I'm pretty sure it's been five years since Xcelerator was introduced, and the damn thing still hasn't been open on time any of the times I've been there. At least B&M has enough balls to not release a new technology until it's absolutely perfect. Unlike Intiman who seems to enjoy jumping the gun.
I've actually never seen Xcelerator break down...ever. And I've ridden it 50+ times. I also recall going with you to Knott's 2 or 3 times and not seeing Xcel down either. So lets not exaggerate to make things appear worse, Aye? :) Xcelerator still remains one of the most reliable Intamin rockets.
Well, wooden coasters have wooden track, my friend.
He was referring to the metal strip on top of the wooden rails, as seen on every wooden coaster.
-Alex
I see now, Alex, thank you. But that doesn't change the fact that Prefabricated wooden track (in my opinion) sort of takes away from the wooden feel. Woodies are (of course, in my opinion again) supposed to be somewhat shakey, not butter smooth. That is what adds to some of the fun of it. Look at some old wooden coasters, the lift hills aren't even straight. Even on Voyage, a modern woodie, things had to be eyed, not everything is perfect. But if the track is made in a shop in pieces and then just pieced together like a puzzle, it doesn't seem as "wooden".
SnooSnoo
11-03-2007, 10:15 PM
I see now, Alex, thank you. But that doesn't change the fact that Prefabricated wooden track (in my opinion) sort of takes away from the wooden feel. Woodies are (of course, in my opinion again) supposed to be somewhat shakey, not butter smooth.I would respond to your first post.. but Arez did that for me.
As to this.. El Toro was far from butter smooth. In fact, on most turns, it was rather shakey. Not Voyage shakey, but not butter smooth. In the Figure 8, I felt noticeable roughness in the back of the trains.
It definitely feels like a woodie, but the best parts of woodies.. the parts that don't KILL you.
I just can't understand why people enjoy getting molested on the old woodies as compared to the new ones.
Sodomy MUST be a wooden enthusiasts favorite past time.
We have to take what we can get. I'll take almost five hundred opinions of companies over just one person's. Mitch's poll obviously can't be 100% correct, but its the best we've got.Obviously, I would too.. any sane person would too. Just the fact that, from people that I've seen, the popular opinion seems to roll one way for the more and more people I talk to who've ridden my selection of rides.
Now, I'm not saying my opinion is better then anyones, besides those who haven't ridden the rides I've ridden, so don't think that.
Of course, when it comes to polls, even in Mitch Hawker, so many OTHER things can affect how people feel. Fanboyism, bias, bad experiences.. ect. Not saying that doesn't affect the average person, but polls definitely show it.. *coughGoldenTicketscough*
I respect that you have ridden more coasters than I have, but that doesn't mean what I have to say is bull. I've ridden a hell of a lot of coasters for my age, and it's obvious that its just down to preference. You obviously prefer Intamin. Some people prefer B&M. Something I'd like to hear from you though, is, which company do you think makes the better choices? Intamins according to you are better, but you can't ignore the fact that a lot of their newer launch coasters break down all the time. I'm sure if you were a park owner you'd find a ride from that company less appealing...Hey, I agree, my count at your age was half of that.. hell.. I only truly considered myself an enthusiast about 2 years ago.
But, nowhere did I say your opinion was bull.
Heres my opinion.. if I've ridden something, or have a better selection of rides then someone else, my opinion will be more favored over them.
As I said before, doesn't mean theirs is bad, just that mine is better. Now, same would go for myself.. as I know people who've ridden 200..300..400 coasters. Their opinions on certain rides, or in this argument, would be more favored because of what they've been on.
I think I stated earlier, kinda, that B&M has the more reliable (or make better, less risky) decisions then Intamin, but for the most part, Intamin makes the more thrilling machines.
Now its not that I prefer Intamin, its just that my favorite rides are Intamin. For me, to be totally honest, it all comes down to how good the ride is. I could care less who builds it, as long as its good. I try to be as unbiased as possible when judging these rides, because going in thinking it will be amazing, or horrible, can skew your opinion.
Almost all the rides I've been on was strait based on how my ride(s) were when I was on the coaster. My Top 10 reflects that. B&M has some class rides, as half of my Top 10 is B&M, but my Top 4 are really a class in its own.. El Toro being in a class above the other 3. Those rides were the only rides I've ever been on that left me with my jaw on the floor unable to speak from how good the ride was. The other B&M's left me thinking, hell ya that was good.. but not blow my mind insane (I could argue that point for Griffon tho.. as that was pretty crazy).
As far as your comment about Vekoma's clones, you can't compare them. Batman: The Ride clones placed 59th in Hawker's poll. That is above not only SLC's and Boomerangs and many other B&M's, but also above your dear Intamins Kingda Ka, Stealth, Wicked Twister, Vertical Velocity, Rita, and more...hmm. Notice something? Those are all launchers! Maybe Intamin's advancements weren't good choices on the company's part.Hmm.. what?
That comment was made in response to this:
"Any coaster with 13 clones of it says something about the company that made it."
I was simply making reference to the fact that, as I stated, quantity doesn't mean quality. Just because Vekoma made 50 some Boomerangs doesn't mean they are the best now does it?
Don't read into things so fast.
PS: Batman: The Ride (SFGAdv) is in my Top 25.. unlike KK, WT, or those other 'dear' Intamins which I haven't even ridden.
By the way, don't bash Mitch Hawker's poll, because it is the only way for us to be on the same page about the general enthusiast's preferences.I'll bash whatever I feel isn't just. Only a FRACTION of the Mitch Hawker is close to what i've seen from my fellow enthusiasts.. mainly the top 5/10 of the wood/steel polls.
The rest is utter crap.
But remember sonny, its all preference now isn't it?
But remember sonny, its all preference now isn't it?Well, that's why I asked about which company you think makes better decisions, as that doesn't have as much do do with personal preference as 'which ride to you like better?'.
Any company who has a ride cloned 13 times (or more) does say something about that company. They made a successful decision. While Boomerangs are bashed all the time, as are SLC's, obviously parks see something in them as there are so many. Vekoma is now addressing the roughness problem by trying out some new trains...another good decision.
sirloin
11-03-2007, 10:35 PM
Bear in mind, folks, that most of this is geared towards SnooSnoo.
If the best Intamin at a park is better than the best B&M at a park, then why, in 2006, did I like Nitro ten times more than I liked Kingda Ka? No, El Toro wasn't open yet, but I may still like Nitro more even after I've ridden it.
Let's talk SFOT for a minute, though. Shock Wave is technically an Intamin, and Batman blows the doors off of it. Steel Venom at GL was an Intamin, and Dominator slaughtered it. No, the best Intamin is NOT always better than the best B&M.
I can honestly say I've not ridden a B&M that I haven't liked. Can't say the same for Intamin. Disaster Transport wasn't too fun.
Oh, and it doesn't take improvement over time to create the best rides. Last I checked, B-TR is still one of the baddest rides around. So is Kumba. So is Medusa. B&M got it right the first time in many cases.
And if the Boomerangs and SLCs of the world weren't decently popular, there wouldn't be forty or fifty of them, now would there? Sure, people might like their B&Ms more, but the SLC will do wonders for you if nobody knows about B&M inverts. I waited an hour and a half for Serial Thriller at Six Flags Astroworld with both trains going and no breakdowns. You're right. They must totally suck, and nobody can possibly like them.
Know what it says about Vekoma? It says that they have two production models that deliver one heck of alot of bang for their buck, and parks who may not have the money for Intamins and B&Ms can get an inexpensive ride that alot of people will like.
My good man Dan brings up an excellent point. Which company makes better choices? Is it B&M, who doesn't do a rush job and introduce rides that don't work, but rather takes their time, engineers rides to perfection, and gives a good solid winner every time? Or is it Intamin, who introduces rides with unproven and seemingly untested (I know that's not entirely true, but it obviously isn't tested well enough) technology that many times nowadays need constant revamping and upgrading?
If I were a park owner, I'd buy a B&M. I know it will work, and I know that they have 7 coaster styles that I can pick and choose from. Intamin really only has 5 overly thrilling styles these days (inverts/impulses, megacoasters, rockets, wooden coasters, and sitdown loopers [launched and unlaunched]), with only 3 of them are being even remotely successful, and only 2 of those are still popping up frequently. Yeah, I know more of their white-knucklers are on offer, but most aren't bought anymore. So if Intamin is so incredible, why does everyone go B&M?
I will give Intamin that their rides are cheaper in some cases. You couldn't buy a B&M the same size as Millennium Force for $25 million. I'll admit that. Instead, I could buy the baddest B&M ever built. Shoot, I'd buy a mega the size of Nitro and use the extra money for some serious theming action, and get just as many (if not more) rave reviews than Millennium Force. Not only that, but I can get better capacity and reliability to boot.
And Alex, being one of the more reliable rockets doesn't always mean much. They still don't run like Premier LIM coasters, so I don't want any of that thrown in here. Most Premiers (at least the bowl coasters) run like your average lift-hill coasters do, or better yet, like most of your B&Ms do, so call me when even the most reliable rockets reach that level. Sure, Xcelerator may not be broken when you're there, but that doesn't mean it doesn't break. I saw X-Flight go three weeks without a breakdown, but that doesn't mean it was a gloriously reliable ride. I don't care if an Intamin is more reliable than other Intamins. I want to know when an Intamin is more reliable than everybody else's rides, because that's what really matters. If Intamins were so reliable, Florida parks would be building them. However, they aren't, because you can't always bank on capacity being what it's advertised to be and I'm not confident a major Intamin coaster could handle the year-round punishment inflicted on it. Funny that the Florida parks seem to think Vekomas can, though. Score two for Disney and the glorious Rock 'n Roller Coaster and the mighty Expedition: Everest. Apparently Vekoma doesn't suck.
Quality, not quantity, dear, but I'll take both and go with B&M.
I'll bash whatever I feel isn't just. Only a FRACTION of the Mitch Hawker is close to what i've seen from my fellow enthusiasts.. mainly the top 5/10 of the wood/steel polls.
The rest is utter crap.
Bull. ****. Just because yours and your little buddies OPINIONS are not the EXACT same as those of Mitch's poll, does NOT mean that his poll "isn't just". It just means that you and your little friends have a different OPINION than the MAJORITY of other enthusiasts. Remember, there is no right or wrong opinion.
I've actually never seen Xcelerator break down...ever. And I've ridden it 50+ times. I also recall going with you to Knott's 2 or 3 times and not seeing Xcel down either. So lets not exaggerate to make things appear worse, Aye? :) Xcelerator still remains one of the most reliable Intamin rockets.
Wrong. Both times I have been there with you the ride has broken down. There has not been one time in all my visits to Knott's that I have not seen the ride broken down.
Edit: Jeezus, two people post during my post... editing..
Thrill Reconnoiter
11-03-2007, 11:00 PM
I can honestly say I've not ridden a B&M that I haven't liked. Can't say the same for Intamin.
I thought this whole thread was going nowhere till I read that, and realized I feel the same way.
I thought this whole thread was going nowhere till I read that, and realized I feel the same way.On the contrary, I feel this thread is one of the best of all the threads in which I have participated!
Thrill Reconnoiter
11-03-2007, 11:04 PM
On the contrary, I feel this thread is one of the best of all the threads in which I have participated!
I meant on my ability to make up whether I'm an Intamin or Beemer guy. This thread is definitely good, healthy discussion.
Comet
11-03-2007, 11:07 PM
If the best Intamin at a park is better than the best B&M at a park, then why, in 2006, did I like Nitro ten times more than I liked Kingda Ka? No, El Toro wasn't open yet, but I may still like Nitro more even after I've ridden it.
I think he meant that the best Intamin in the world is better then the best B&M in the world, which is kinda true.
But sirloin, as you said, all B&M's are good, and almost none of them are not enjoyable. However...a good Intamin, is at a completely different level then a good B&M, even if they don't come as often.
^That may be true, but does that make Intamin a better company than B&M?
Personally, I prefer B&M, but I've only been on a couple of Intamins, so I don't have a really good comparison of the two companies.
^That may be true, but does that make Intamin a better company than B&M?
No...in fact, the opposite! A company that has all of their rides rated as at least enjoyable most definately beats a company who has spectacular rides ...but has fewer great rides that come farther in between.
Comet
11-03-2007, 11:11 PM
^^No, and I personally think B&M is a more successful company, I just rather ride a good Intamin then a good B&M.
SnooSnoo
11-03-2007, 11:11 PM
Well, that's why I asked about which company you think makes better decisions, as that doesn't have as much do do with personal preference as 'which ride to you like better?'.
Hmm...
I think I stated earlier, kinda, that B&M has the more reliable (or make better, less risky) decisions then Intamin, but for the most part, Intamin makes the more thrilling machines.Kinda says it doesn't it.. but i'll add..
"Intamin makes the more thrilling machines.. more likely to attract customers but also more likely to have problems."
Oo.. two more posts while I was responding.. i'm popular!!!! :rolleyes:
If the best Intamin at a park is better than the best B&M at a park, then why, in 2006, did I like Nitro ten times more than I liked Kingda Ka? No, El Toro wasn't open yet, but I may still like Nitro more even after I've ridden it.
Let's talk SFOT for a minute, though. Shock Wave is technically an Intamin, and Batman blows the doors off of it. Steel Venom at GL was an Intamin, and Dominator slaughtered it. No, the best Intamin is NOT always better than the best B&M.
I can honestly say I've not ridden a B&M that I haven't liked. Can't say the same for Intamin. Disaster Transport wasn't too fun.Who said I was talking a specific park? No where.. NO WHERE did I say that.
I was simply stating, OVERALL.. of all the rides out there.. the BEST Intamin is better then the BEST B&M.
SIMPLE!
Oh, and it doesn't take improvement over time to create the best rides. Last I checked, B-TR is still one of the baddest rides around. So is Kumba. So is Medusa. B&M got it right the first time in many cases.Preference baby, preference. I've heard Medusa was total crap.. in fact, it is total crap, and a majority of the Batman clones are crap compared to some.. more so new to old.
I'd say Kumba was the exception.
And if the Boomerangs and SLCs of the world weren't decently popular, there wouldn't be forty or fifty of them, now would there? Sure, people might like their B&Ms more, but the SLC will do wonders for you if nobody knows about B&M inverts. I waited an hour and a half for Serial Thriller at Six Flags Astroworld with both trains going and no breakdowns. You're right. They must totally suck, and nobody can possibly like them.
Know what it says about Vekoma? It says that they have two production models that deliver one heck of alot of bang for their buck, and parks who may not have the money for Intamins and B&Ms can get an inexpensive ride that alot of people will like.Didn't say they totally suck, did I? Nope.. no where. All I was basically saying they are of lesser quality.
But, funny enough, I agree with what you said.. lol
You kids at RCPro read WAY to much into things..
My good man Dan brings up an excellent point. Which company makes better choices? Is it B&M, who doesn't do a rush job and introduce rides that don't work, but rather takes their time, engineers rides to perfection, and gives a good solid winner every time? Or is it Intamin, who introduces rides with unproven and seemingly untested (I know that's not entirely true, but it obviously isn't tested well enough) technology that many times nowadays need constant revamping and upgrading?Someone has a bit of bias.
You are true on one point.. B&M engineers to perfection.. the same perfection they've been doing forever years. When you do the SAME THING but in a different model, over and over and over, its kinda hard to mess things up now isn't it?
As for Intamin.. their ONLY real problem coasters are their accelerators.. which, if you look at the technology, no matter HOW much they test it, will have problems. Even now, accels aren't perfect... and they've had 6 years to improve it. All that means is it is a complex technology which takes time to refine. If you want to make money, you take risks.. thats a fact of business gentleman.
Intamin took a risk, and its paying off. Accelerators are all over the world, no matter how troublesome they are. Cedar Point took a risk with TTD, and there hasn't been a normal day since 2003, where i've seen the line less then half an hour. That says something.
If I were a park owner, I'd buy a B&M. I know it will work, and I know that they have 7 coaster styles that I can pick and choose from. Intamin really only has 5 overly thrilling styles these days (inverts/impulses, megacoasters, rockets, wooden coasters, and sitdown loopers [launched and unlaunched]), with only 3 of them are being even remotely successful, and only 2 of those are still popping up frequently. Yeah, I know more of their white-knucklers are on offer, but most aren't bought anymore. So if Intamin is so incredible, why does everyone go B&M?
1. Who said everyone is going B&M? When was the last time Cedar Point went B&M? When was the last time SFGAdv when B&M?
FUNNY thing.. in 2007, Intamin opened 7 new rides around the world. B&M opened.. 3... 3!!
Also.. from 2006-2008 (so far), Intamin has announced/added 22 attractions, B&M.. 14.
Hmm.. yep.. everyone is going B&M..
2. If I want a big, thrilling attraction to draw crowds, history tells me to go Intamin. Look at parks who add huge, thrilling Intamin attractions.. yeah.. those would be some of the most popular amusement parks in the United States/World.
I will give Intamin that their rides are cheaper in some cases. You couldn't buy a B&M the same size as Millennium Force for $25 million. I'll admit that. Instead, I could buy the baddest B&M ever built. Shoot, I'd buy a mega the size of Nitro and use the extra money for some serious theming action, and get just as many (if not more) rave reviews than Millennium Force. Not only that, but I can get better capacity and reliability to boot.How about, instead of that crap reference.. MF.. and lets substitute.. S:RoS (SFNE).
Yeah.. makes your point about null doesn't it.
Bull. ****. Just because yours and your little buddies OPINIONS are not the EXACT same as those of Mitch's poll, does NOT mean that his poll "isn't just". It just means that you and your little friends have a different OPINION than the MAJORITY of other enthusiasts. Remember, there is no right or wrong opinion.Nah.. I take the opinions of.. Theme Park Review, Coasterforce, Coaster Buzz, YOU... and throw it all together.
I'll take THESE sites over ANY poll.. any day of the week... except for you west coast fanboys of course.. ;)
Read too much darling..
I can honestly say I've not ridden a B&M that I haven't liked. Can't say the same for Intamin.You haven't been to Cedar Point.. SFNE.. Hershey.. IoA.. SFGAdv.. then have you.
On the contrary, I feel this thread is one of the best of all the threads in which I have participated!
Arguing is fun isn't it?!? :)
No...in fact, the opposite! A company that has all of their rides rated as at least enjoyable most definately beats a company who has spectacular rides ...but has fewer great rides that come farther in between.
That's what I was thinking.
^^No, and I personally think B&M is a more successful company, I just rather ride a good Intamin then a good B&M.
I agree with you.
Kinda says it doesn't it.. but i'll add..
I was stating the reason I asked not asking it again. Sorry for the miscommunication.
Who said I was talking a specific park? No where.. NO WHERE did I say that.
I was simply stating, OVERALL.. of all the rides out there.. the BEST Intamin is better then the BEST B&M.
Again, it seems there was miscommunication. Miscommunication seems to be plaguing yours posts...
Preference baby, preference. I've heard Medusa was total crap.. in fact, it is total crap, and a majority of the Batman clones are crap compared to some.. more so new to old.
When you say something like that, you alienate yourself from anyone who doesn't think Medusa is crap...say...most of the people that have ridden it? Now all those people take the rest of your opinions less seriously. This includes myself.
Didn't say they totally suck, did I? Nope.. no where. All I was basically saying they are of lesser quality.
Yet again, miscommunication...they may be lesser of quality, I agree with you there. But they are a smarter business decision.
You kids at RCPro read WAY to much into things..
Don't call me a kid. Yes, I may be younger than you, and technically not an adult, but I've had a love of roller coasters since the second grade, I've sold photos to a professional ride manufacturer, am invited to press events, and consider myself a roller coaster adult. Whether or not someone on a forum is a 'kid' should be based on their level of maturity, not their age.
You are true on one point.. B&M engineers to perfection.. the same perfection they've been doing forever years. When you do the SAME THING but in a different model, over and over and over, its kinda hard to mess things up now isn't it?
As for Intamin.. their ONLY real problem coasters are their accelerators.. which, if you look at the technology, no matter HOW much they test it, will have problems. Even now, accels aren't perfect... and they've had 6 years to improve it. All that means is it is a complex technology which takes time to refine. If you want to make money, you take risks.. thats a fact of business gentleman.
B&M makes a huge amount of money, so obviously that saying isn't entirely true. It's not the same thing...Flyers and Sit-Downs are completely different. B&M has been using the same type of track since they started. Let's compare it to Southwest Airlines. They have been using the same one plane model since the company was founded, in fact, it is a basis for their foundation. They have been much more successful relative to many other airlines in the world.
Nah.. I take the opinions of.. Theme Park Review, Coasterforce, Coaster Buzz, YOU... and throw it all together.
Well, the members of those sites are the people who take part in Mitch's poll in the first place.
You haven't been to Cedar Point.. SFNE.. Hershey.. IoA.. SFGAdv.. then have you.
I haven't been to all those places, but I've been to Hershey and Cedar Point. I liked Mantis and Raptor, and loved Great Bear.
Mike T
11-03-2007, 11:35 PM
Whoa baby, talk about a heated thread! I advocate a very healthy discussion, but guys, lets try to refrain from taking cheap shots at each other. At the count of three I want everybody to take a deep breath and chill... 1....2.... ah who am I kidding? ;)... But in all seriousness, try to ease it up a bit. Thank you for your concern and participation.
sirloin
11-03-2007, 11:36 PM
SnooSnoo, you have summoned the evil wrath of sirloin. Good sir, prepare for a thrashing!
Before I say anything, I would like to say this. 21 year olds aren't kids. Good try, though. I've got over two decades of credibility that I'm about to throw down in your face, my friend.
OK, let's go at this nice long post of yours.
1) If the best B&M is not better than the best Intamin, then I must be on crack, because I could swear Kumba's just as good, if not better, than any Intamin I've been on, including SFNE's Superman and Millennium Force.
2) Preference, baby, preference. Medusa is good quality fun every time I ride it.
3) I don't read way too much into things. I call 'em like I see 'em and see 'em I did. I don't dispute that they're of lesser quality, but their quality can't be that bad, and 60+ parks seem to agree with me on that. Yeah, pretty sharp for someone whose just a kid finishing his senior year in college.
4) It's not bias. It's business. I'll take what works all the time, not what works some of the time.
Now if rockets were Intamins only problems, Steel Venom at GL wouldn't have wrecked itself the way it did. We wouldn't have shin guards on our SF Intamin megas and seatbelt restrictions on all the others. There'd be more Reverse Freefall coasters like Superman-The Escape and Tower of Terror. There'd be Intamins in Florida.
Oh, and there hasn't been a normal day in Ohio since 2003. TTD hasn't worked normally since then. And last I checked, CP also got those lines in 1989 with Magnum. You wanna know why those lines are that long? Because the park is overcrowded and doesn't have the capacity to keep up. If those Intamins are so legendary, why can't they keep an attendance increase for more than one year? I've seen the lines plenty shorter than a half hour, and not just weekends in the fall. Try going on less crowded days. Waits are shorter on those days. ;)
5) Touche on CP, but the last time SFGAdv went B&M was 2003, when they opened their fourth B&M. Same for SFGAm, who didn't go Intamin after that. Now those two are going Mack.
When was the last time either Busch Gardens park went Intamin? Or Islands of Adventure? Or Disney?
People don't need to go B&M anymore because they already have plenty. I'm not sticking 5 B&Ms in one park. Heck, I'm not sticking 5 Intamins in there, either.
And if I want to bring in a huge, thrilling attraction that brings in loads of people, history tells me to go Vekoma or B&M, because the Florida parks (and Disneyland), which always seem to have attendance increases, don't build Intamins. Oh! But what about Disney's California Adventure? Oh, wait, they're having over a billion dollars poured into them because they weren't getting the job done. Granted, that wasn't Intamin's fault, so let's think of something better. How about Cedar Point? Oh, wait, attendance has been dropping steadily, starting in 2004. Those Intamins really held everyone's attention, didn't they?
6) You're right, it kills my terrible reference. Wait, no it doesn't. I could still build a B&M just as good.
Wow, my point doesn't feel null. Perhaps it's the medication.
7) I've been to all of those. Better keep trying. Disaster Transport still sucks, and the impulses are no better than the worst B&Ms I've been on, which means Raptor.
8) Arguing is fun, and were it not for your controversial opinions, we wouldn't be having half the thread we are now. My thanks, and that's not sarcasm.
^^I'm typing this as I'm waiting to take that breath, I don't know how much longer I can wait to take a breath?!?!:( (Just kidding)
I agree with you though, That's why I really considered if I wanted to start to post in this thread.
Common guys, lay off with the cheap shots.;)
Oo.. two more posts while I was responding.. i'm popular!!!! :rolleyes:
What the hell is this supposed to mean?
I was simply stating, OVERALL.. of all the rides out there.. the BEST Intamin is better then the BEST B&M.
Opinion, opinion, opinion.
Preference baby, preference. I've heard Medusa was total crap.. in fact, it is total crap, and a majority of the Batman clones are crap compared to some.. more so new to old.
For the love of God, stop pulling this "well I heard" crap out of your *** to 'prove a point'.
Didn't say they totally suck, did I? Nope.. no where. All I was basically saying they are of lesser quality.
You were most certainly implying it.
You kids at RCPro read WAY to much into things..
Meaning we take what other people say seriously? What a bloody shock!
Someone has a bit of bias.
He certainly isn't the only one..
As for Intamin.. their ONLY real problem coasters are their accelerators.. which, if you look at the technology, no matter HOW much they test it, will have problems. Even now, accels aren't perfect... and they've had 6 years to improve it. All that means is it is a complex technology which takes time to refine. If you want to make money, you take risks.. thats a fact of business gentleman.
How about Maverick and Millennium Force? They were both closed for an extensive amount of time over my three day stay at Cedar Point, Ethan can back this one up, and I believe he prefers intamin to B&M.
Intamin took a risk, and its paying off. Accelerators are all over the world, no matter how troublesome they are. Cedar Point took a risk with TTD, and there hasn't been a normal day since 2003, where i've seen the line less then half an hour. That says something.
Yes it does, it says that they also have terrible capacity ;).
I'll take THESE sites over ANY poll.. any day of the week... except for you west coast fanboys of course.. ;)
Yeah, we're the worst. Much worse than you Cedar Point and Intamin fanboys... ;)
You haven't been to Cedar Point.. SFNE.. Hershey.. IoA.. SFGAdv.. then have you.
I can't speak for most of those parks. However, just because Cedar Point screwed up their B&M's does not mean the company is poor.
First off, I am glad I started this poll, healthy discussions are good. That is a joke, so nobody take that seriously! Now this is also mainly directed at SnooSnoo but first to Alex. I worked at KBF for almost 7 months, it was shut down at one point for 2 months, another for a week, and then AT LEAST 2 days a week it experienced SOME downtime. So thats just a little insider info.
"Intamin makes the more thrilling machines.. more likely to attract customers but also more likely to have problems."
I was simply stating, OVERALL.. of all the rides out there.. the BEST Intamin is better then the BEST B&M.
Which is the BEST? And saying best is the biggest opinion statement possible!
Preference baby, preference. I've heard Medusa was total crap.. in fact, it is total crap, and a majority of the Batman clones are crap compared to some.. more so new to old.
Have you PERSONALLY been on all the Batmans? No so it is WHAT YOU HAVE HEARD! B:TR is an amazing ride, the ones at both SFGAm and SFMM are incredible. How long have those 2 been operating? 1992 and 1994 respectively. Two of the oldest and look how they held up. Look at how S:TE is holding up, o yeah I forgot its closed most of the time and had a major design problem with it, gotta love rushed technology!
You are true on one point.. B&M engineers to perfection.. the same perfection they've been doing forever years. When you do the SAME THING but in a different model, over and over and over, its kinda hard to mess things up now isn't it?
I would not say they build the same thing over and over again. Hydra is no where close to Medusa, Tatsu, completely different than S:UF. Raging Bull and Behemoth, resemblance where? With no B&M what concepts would we not be seeing right now? Dive Machine, and Floorless are just to name a few.
As for Intamin.. their ONLY real problem coasters are their accelerators.. which, if you look at the technology, no matter HOW much they test it, will have problems. Even now, accels aren't perfect... and they've had 6 years to improve it. All that means is it is a complex technology which takes time to refine. If you want to make money, you take risks.. thats a fact of business gentleman.
Intamin took a risk, and its paying off. Accelerators are all over the world, no matter how troublesome they are. Cedar Point took a risk with TTD, and there hasn't been a normal day since 2003, where i've seen the line less then half an hour. That says something.
Acceleration coasters are the ONLY Intamin's with problems? Wow. First off lets just go through the list. MF, cable has broken multiple times. Impulses are CONSTANTLY breaking left and right, so that busted your theory 100%.
1. Who said everyone is going B&M? When was the last time Cedar Point went B&M? When was the last time SFGAdv when B&M?
FUNNY thing.. in 2007, Intamin opened 7 new rides around the world. B&M opened.. 3... 3!!
Also.. from 2006-2008 (so far), Intamin has announced/added 22 attractions, B&M.. 14.
Hmm.. yep.. everyone is going B&M..First, B&M for the most part cost MORE than Intamin's, that is why are more are coming out. I don't like being made to look like a fool, you misinterpreted my reference to El Toro, it is NOT a real wooden coaster in my eyes as it is made in a damn factory. GhostRider is a rough SoB and I love that ride because it is NOT smooth!
2. If I want a big, thrilling attraction to draw crowds, history tells me to go Intamin. Look at parks who add huge, thrilling Intamin attractions.. yeah.. those would be some of the most popular amusement parks in the United States/World.
So SFMM is not one of the most popular parks in the world? How many B&M's do they have compared to Intamin? How good of quality is that Intamin also? The quality of the Beemers are how much more than that Intamin. SFGAm, same story. I was there for 2 days, V2 was not open, another great Intamin coaster for you. Now those are 2 parks but companies also have good relations with certain companies. Just look at history and see what companies get Beemers primarily and which get Intamin's, there is a pattern.
How about, instead of that crap reference.. MF.. and lets substitute.. S:RoS (SFNE).
MF is one of the most talked about coasters in the world, and is many peoples favorite coaster. It was number 1 in the polls for how long now? I have been on MF and it is not what it is cracked up to be thats for sure.
Nah.. I take the opinions of.. Theme Park Review, Coasterforce, Coaster Buzz, YOU... and throw it all together.
I'll take THESE sites over ANY poll.. any day of the week... except for you west coast fanboys of course.. ;)
Well lets see, you are saying our opinions are pretty much ****. Ya I have only been on 90 coasters, mainly because my parents aren't too big of coaster fans and my siblings aren't either. Also I have only liked coasters for less than 5 years. My opinion DOES count as much as anyone elses though. I listen to everyones opinion, regardless if they have ridden 10 coasters or 1,000 it makes NO difference to me. Sure the person with more has ridden more therefore they can compare better, but still, it doesn't make you better than another person. O and the "west coast fanboys" you are referring to, how many can afford themselves to fly across the country, or world, to ride coasters. Pretty much unless your parents love coasters as well, you are stuck with what you have. I am lucky enough that I found cheap enough airfare to get to CP where I had to pay for both mine and my dads ticket, and both CF passes. I worked for about 5 months for that trip and I am damn proud I can say I earned it.
Good debates are healthy for the soul.
O and I am not a kid either. I am eligible to enlist, I am in college, I am registered to vote. All things that change once you turn 18. I am mature for my age, and I do not say that, my friends and family do.
Comet
11-04-2007, 12:13 AM
If the best B&M is not better than the best Intamin, then I must be on crack, because I could swear Kumba's just as good, if not better, than any Intamin I've been on, including SFNE's Superman and Millennium Force.
Well according to these polls, you have to go through a couple of Intamins before you reach the first B&M. So it wouldn't be too far fetched to say the best Intamin is better than the best B&M.
When was the last time either Busch Gardens park went Intamin? Or Islands of Adventure? Or Disney?
Disney has gone to Intamin multiple times, yet have not yet gone to B&M, and Islands of Adventure has yet to expand so who knows who they will go to next.
Oh, I also want to mention that Intamin also makes some very successful flat rides, something B&M has yet to experiment with.
Oh, I also want to mention that Intamin also makes some very successful flat rides, something B&M has yet to experiment with.
You do raise a good point. I hadn't thought about that at all, actually. Intamin is definately a wider company than B&M, the more focused company.
SnooSnoo
11-04-2007, 12:30 AM
Again, it seems there was miscommunication. Miscommunication seems to be plaguing yours posts...
More like people reading into things way too much and not taking them for face value.
When you say something like that, you alienate yourself from anyone who doesn't think Medusa is crap...say...most of the people that have ridden it? Now all those people take the rest of your opinions less seriously. This includes myself.
It happens. I'm a bit more blunt of a person then most. If you don't like it.. whatever.
Don't call me a kid. Yes, I may be younger than you, and technically not an adult, but I've had a love of roller coasters since the second grade, I've sold photos to a professional ride manufacturer, am invited to press events, and consider myself a roller coaster adult. Whether or not someone on a forum is a 'kid' should be based on their level of maturity, not their age.
Wow.. just wow.
You are a kid. 15 years old.. boy look at the REAL world.. not the rollercoaster world. Hell.. I AM a kid.
B&M makes a huge amount of money, so obviously that saying isn't entirely true. It's not the same thing...Flyers and Sit-Downs are completely different. B&M has been using the same type of track since they started. Let's compare it to Southwest Airlines. They have been using the same one plane model since the company was founded, in fact, it is a basis for their foundation. They have been much more successful relative to many other airlines in the world.
Meh. The only real difference is the trains and heartline center on the riders.. which can be adjusted fairly easily if you have a base to start from.
Its kind of like No-Limits.. but in real life.. ;)
I haven't been to all those places, but I've been to Hershey and Cedar Point. I liked Mantis and Raptor, and loved Great Bear.
You actually liked Mantis? Hmm.. on that note..
SnooSnoo, you have summoned the evil wrath of sirloin. Good sir, prepare for a thrashing!
Before I say anything, I would like to say this. 21 year olds aren't kids. Good try, though. I've got over two decades of credibility that I'm about to throw down in your face, my friend.LOL!
I'm sorry.. but that made me laugh.
And yes.. 21 year old people are kids. 20 years on this Earth is NOTHING. Most of the people I know haven't experienced ANYTHING, which would include myself.
1) If the best B&M is not better than the best Intamin, then I must be on crack, because I could swear Kumba's just as good, if not better, than any Intamin I've been on, including SFNE's Superman and Millennium Force.Preference.
2) Preference, baby, preference. Medusa is good quality fun every time I ride it.Exactly.
3) I don't read way too much into things. I call 'em like I see 'em and see 'em I did. I don't dispute that they're of lesser quality, but their quality can't be that bad, and 60+ parks seem to agree with me on that. Yeah, pretty sharp for someone whose just a kid finishing his senior year in college.Hmm.. I'd say.. the rides are cheap, easy to manufacture, and very good for smaller parks.
THATS why there are so many boomerangs/SLC's. Do you see any SLC's or Boomerangs at many bigger parks? No.
Cheap way to get money into your park. Geauga Lake, Lake Compounce.. all were helped by this method.
Pretty smart indeed.
4) It's not bias. It's business. I'll take what works all the time, not what works some of the time.
The Facts say Intamin is more popular dear. More Intamins out there = more people choose Intamin.. plain and simple.
Oh, and there hasn't been a normal day in Ohio since 2003. TTD hasn't worked normally since then. And last I checked, CP also got those lines in 1989 with Magnum. You wanna know why those lines are that long? Because the park is overcrowded and doesn't have the capacity to keep up. If those Intamins are so legendary, why can't they keep an attendance increase for more than one year? I've seen the lines plenty shorter than a half hour, and not just weekends in the fall. Try going on less crowded days. Waits are shorter on those days.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dragster420/TopThrillDragsterLog.jpg
You, my friend, can shut your mouth.
TTD started bad, and has improved DRASTICALLY.
And I have been on TTD on short days.. i'm making reference to average days. I rode TTD some 25 times this summer, didn't wait over 1 hour.. because I never went on a crowded day. I've seen lines of 2-3 hours, and I've walked on to the train on several occasions.
How about Cedar Point? Oh, wait, attendance has been dropping steadily, starting in 2004. Those Intamins really held everyone's attention, didn't they?You think that has to do with rollercoasters? Do you live in Ohio? I happen to.. and less attendance has to do with gas prices, local economies, and many other things which has nothing to do if CP adds a new ride. Yes, it can boost it.. but for a park that popular as it is, decreases can be explained many other ways then a new ride.
6) You're right, it kills my terrible reference. Wait, no it doesn't. I could still build a B&M just as good.
Wow, my point doesn't feel null. Perhaps it's the medication.You sure? Name a B&M as good as S:RoS?
Wait.. you love your beautiful little B&M's.. so of course you could.
PREFERENCE darling.. preference.
Fact is, S:RoS has had BETTER reviews then Nitro consistently since either ride was opened.. and S:RoS was cheaper (I believe so.. check me on that). So.. I guess my point still stands.
Or maybe you missed your medication? Should get that checked.
7) I've been to all of those. Better keep trying. Disaster Transport still sucks, and the impulses are no better than the worst B&Ms I've been on, which means Raptor.
8) Arguing is fun, and were it not for your controversial opinions, we wouldn't be having half the thread we are now. My thanks, and that's not sarcasm.Wait.. what? First part I don't get.
Yes.. my opinions always do seem to cause someone to get mad. Look at this thread.. lol.. but I stand by them as how I feel. And if you have a problem, you know what you can sit and rotate on.
My thanks.. and that's not sarcasm.
-------------------
What the hell is this supposed to mean?Look at how many people have responded to my posts? Its magical really.
Opinion, opinion, opinion.I beg to differ. Those praised polls.. who has been #1 in the steel poll for how many years? O ya.. an INTAMIN.
Thought so.
For the love of God, stop pulling this "well I heard" crap out of your *** to 'prove a point'.Wait wait.. i've RIDDEN Medusa. Yeahh.. proved that point quite well.
You were most certainly implying it.According to you.
Meaning we take what other people say seriously? What a bloody shock!Its a forum buddy.. you take things too seriously and you'll end up insane. You can't express emotion on here.. or this convo wouldn't be half of what it is.
He certainly isn't the only one.. Yeah.. I have bias. I like GOOD rides. Intamin has better then the best B&M's.
Fact.
The polls say it, most enthusiasts say it.. don't see the problem.
How about Maverick and Millennium Force? They were both closed for an extensive amount of time over my three day stay at Cedar Point, Ethan can back this one up, and I believe he prefers intamin to B&M.That has to do with Cedar Point's operations. They have a problem with running things when they aren't safe. If there is a problem, they don't open the ride.
Or you could have just gone at a HORRIBLE time. I went to CP 19 times this summer.. I didn't have more then 1 or 2 breakdowns on MF.. and nothing over 20 minutes on Maverick.
Yes it does, it says that they also have terrible capacity ;).Well.. when you have a higher capacity per train, it happens now doesn't it?
Yeah, we're the worst. Much worse than you Cedar Point and Intamin fanboys... I'ma GOOD RIDE fanboy. Intamin makes the best.
Also.. the fact that I live close to CP is irrelevant. It's not even in my Top 5 favorite parks. Yes, I enjoy my rides there, but I, unlike most, know that most of the rides are complete crap.
I can't speak for most of those parks. However, just because Cedar Point screwed up their B&M's does not mean the company is poor.Nah, but all the other B&M's i've been on which are complete horrid speak volumes.
PS: I never said B&M was a bad company.. anywhere.
--------------------------------
Which is the BEST? And saying best is the biggest opinion statement possible!Aren't we all just stating our opinions? Can't help that now can we.
Have you PERSONALLY been on all the Batmans? No so it is WHAT YOU HAVE HEARD! B:TR is an amazing ride, the ones at both SFGAm and SFMM are incredible. How long have those 2 been operating? 1992 and 1994 respectively. Two of the oldest and look how they held up. Look at how S:TE is holding up, o yeah I forgot its closed most of the time and had a major design problem with it, gotta love rushed technology!
Funny thing.. when they are all clones.. its easy to say which is better. Now, when you read reviews, which is what MOST OF YOU ARE GOING BY, you can get a good judge of a ride. If its rough, not as good as another, you can get a gist of a ride.
PS: S:TE was the biggest mistake in rollercoaster history. I blame Intamin for wanting to make the fastest, and Six Flags for pushing for it so bad.
I would not say they build the same thing over and over again. Hydra is no where close to Medusa, Tatsu, completely different than S:UF. Raging Bull and Behemoth, resemblance where? With no B&M what concepts would we not be seeing right now? Stand-Up, Dive Machine, and Floorless are just to name a few.All the same buddy. They all start with the same basic track design, and are changed for the type of ride it is. Thats why all B&M's look the same, just with a different type of train.. being EXTREMELY basic of course. The only exception to that is Divers.. which have modified track to adjust for the trains.
In theory (not applied of course), you could interchange Floorless and Stand Up, Flyers and Inverts.. and it would work... kinda.
Now, the heart-lines would be TOTALLY off.. and no one could ever ride them.. but thats how much the designs truly change from model to model.
Acceleration coasters are the ONLY Intamin's with problems? Wow. First off lets just go through the list. MF, cable has broken multiple times. Impulses are CONSTANTLY breaking left and right, so that busted your theory 100%.MF cable snapped 3 times maybe? In 7 years? Carrying a several ton train up 310ft can have cause problems. Any idiot can figure that out. Not really a problem with the company IMO.
Wicked Twister broke down 1 times.. all season.. while I was in line or saw it.
Yes.. quite a few have had problems.. but i'd go for the problem starts with the park, not the company.
First, B&M for the most part cost MORE than Intamin's, that is why are more are coming out. I don't like being made to look like a fool, you misinterpreted my reference to El Toro, it is NOT a real wooden coaster in my eyes as it is made in a damn factory. GhostRider is a rough SoB and I love that ride because it is NOT smooth!Hmm.. made of wood.. seems like a woodie. Why you guys over-analyze what makes a woodie a woodie is beyond me. GhostRider is rough because of the company who made it of course. Thats just a given.. lol
So SFMM is not one of the most popular parks in the world? How many B&M's do they have compared to Intamin? How good of quality is that Intamin also? The quality of the Beemers are how much more than that Intamin. SFGAm, same story. I was there for 2 days, V2 was not open, another great Intamin coaster for you. Now those are 2 parks but companies also have good relations with certain companies. Just look at history and see what companies get Beemers primarily and which get Intamin's, there is a pattern.Who said anything about what real parks were doing? I said, if I had the choice.. Intamin. I'd build a huge El Toro, S:RoS, or Maverick over a Nitro, Montu, or Kumba any day of the week.
MF is one of the most talked about coasters in the world, and is many peoples favorite coaster. It was number 1 in the polls for how long now? I have been on MF and it is not what it is cracked up to be thats for sure.Exactly. I've ridden that thing so much that the drop is not even worth it anymore.
You find more and more often, people who like MF.. have ridden it less then 10 times.
Well lets see, you are saying our opinions are pretty much ****. Ya I have only been on 90 coasters, mainly because my parents aren't too big of coaster fans and my siblings aren't either. Also I have only liked coasters for less than 5 years. My opinion DOES count as much as anyone elses though. I listen to everyones opinion, regardless if they have ridden 10 coasters or 1,000 it makes NO difference to me. Sure the person with more has ridden more therefore they can compare better, but still, it doesn't make you better than another person. O and the "west coast fanboys" you are referring to, how many can afford themselves to fly across the country, or world, to ride coasters. Pretty much unless your parents love coasters as well, you are stuck with what you have. I am lucky enough that I found cheap enough airfare to get to CP where I had to pay for both mine and my dads ticket, and both CF passes. I worked for about 5 months for that trip and I am damn proud I can say I earned it.
Joke anyone?
I'll take the opinion of someone who's been on 150 coasters then 50 coasters any day of the week.
Why?
Quality my friend. Now this all depends on what they've ridden, because if they've done nothing but Florida.. they haven't got a clue about Intamins.. ect. ect.
People who've been around the block know whats going on a bit more then someone who hasn't. Experience counts for something, now doesn't it?
You wouldn't hire someone who's fresh out of college to be your CEO over someone who's been a CEO for 10 years now would you?? No.
O and I am not a kid either. I am eligible to enlist, I am in college, I am registered to vote. All things that change once you turn 18. I am mature for my age, and I do not say that, my friends and family do.O yeah? So am I. Your a kid, so am I. Turning 18 means NOTHING.
Give it up.. kid.
Longest post of my LIFE. That took me like half an hour to write.. so if you see any spelling/grammar/things said wrong.. don't look into it too much.
I don't want to pick apart your post, as its so long, so I'll reply to the things that stood out to me.
Wow.. just wow.
You are a kid. 15 years old.. boy look at the REAL world.. not the rollercoaster world. Hell.. I AM a kid.
The 'real world' says you are an adult, but you call yourself a kid later in this post. A bit contradictory.
You actually liked Mantis? Hmm.. on that note..
I like 99% of the roller coasters I ride. Mantis doesn't have such a high ranking in my book, but that doesn't mean I dislike it. It isn't a very smooth B&M, but I thought it was fun. I love riding roller coasters, I can't always be on the best of the best, but that doesn't mean I should hate what I ride. X:/ No Way Out and Disaster Transport are probably the two rides I don't like at all.
You call Sirloin's opinion of Kumba preference, but you say that the statement "Intamin has better than the best B&M's" fact. That makes no sense...and if you are basing that on a poll, didn't you say earlier that those polls suck?
THATS why there are so many boomerangs/SLC's. Do you see any SLC's or Boomerangs at many bigger parks? No.
Oh, but there are. I can't make a list right now, but many Six Flags parks have SLC's and/or Boomerangs. Knott's has a boomerang. Blackpool Pleasure Beach has one. That's off the top of my head, there's no point in researching it because you get my point, I hope.
The Facts say Intamin is more popular dear. More Intamins out there = more people choose Intamin.. plain and simple.
B&M introduced their first coaster 17 years ago, and has built 74 coasters. Intamin introduced theirs in 1979, and has built 106 coasters. If you do the math, B&M has built more coasters a year average. More Intamins out there = it's been around longer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ragsterLog.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dragster420/TopThrillDragsterLog.jpg)
You, my friend, can shut your mouth.
Did you read the note at the bottom? "Days do not include intermittent downtime pertaining to minutes or short hours." To a general public park goer, hearing a ride is "experiencing technical difficulties" is just as bad as the ride being closed (opinion, of course.). Instead of just skipping a ride they've wasted their time on line.
And I have been on TTD on short days.. i'm making reference to average days. I rode TTD some 25 times this summer, didn't wait over 1 hour.. because I never went on a crowded day. I've seen lines of 2-3 hours, and I've walked on to the train on several occasions.
You've contradicted your point that the line is never less than a half hour. All newer rides at all parks operate this way (spare Scream!)...on a crowded day there is a long line, on an empty day there isn't.
You sure? Name a B&M as good as S:RoS?
Wait.. you love your beautiful little B&M's.. so of course you could.
It is all opinion. I will probably prefer Nemesis to S:RoS because I tend to prefer tight inverters to larger, more spread out non inverting rides. Obviously this can change, but based on what I have ridden, I have formulated my opinion.
People who've been around the block know whats going on a bit more then someone who hasn't. Experience counts for something, now doesn't it?
I agree with this. But some people who have ridden 50 coasters can evaluate things and discuss rides in a better fashion than some people who have ridden 150.
MaverickManJZ
11-04-2007, 01:04 AM
I haven't ridden a coaster I can honestly say I didn't like or had some sort of fun on. And that includes SOB.
I'd prefer Intamin as a company any day because of the variety of rides - coasters, thrill rides, monorails, log flumes, and ect.
B&M just makes awesome coasters.
SnooSnoo
11-04-2007, 01:03 AM
Understandable. Hell.. I only read my whole post over once.. lol
The 'real world' says you are an adult, but you call yourself a kid later in this post. A bit contradictory.Definitions are broad my friend. Yeah, you can class someone an adult, but really, on the broad scale of things, isn't.
Honestly, until you graduate college.. and have to rely on yourself to live or you.. don't.. thats when I classify you as an adult.
Not many people fall into that category at my age... even less younger.
I like 99% of the roller coasters I ride. Mantis doesn't have such a high ranking in my book, but that doesn't mean I dislike it. It isn't a very smooth B&M, but I thought it was fun. I love riding roller coasters, I can't always be on the best of the best, but that doesn't mean I should hate what I ride. X:/ No Way Out and Disaster Transport are probably the two rides I don't like at all.Oo.. I thought you meant Mantis is like.. in your Top 5.. my mistake.
You call Sirloin's opinion of Kumba preference, but you say that the statement "Intamin has better than the best B&M's" fact. That makes no sense...and if you are basing that on a poll, didn't you say earlier that those polls suck?Isn't everything opinion really? As I said before, I favor the majority over the minority when it comes to these things. He likes Kumba.. good for him.. but how many people, no matter how bad the poll is, vote for the Mitch Hawker/Golden Ticket awards? For the basis of this, no matter how bad it truly is, is the best we got.
I hate to admit it really.
Oh, but there are. I can't make a list right now, but many Six Flags parks have SLC's and/or Boomerangs. Knott's has a boomerang. Blackpool Pleasure Beach has one. That's off the top of my head, there's no point in researching it because you get my point, I hope.Aside from SFNE, SFMM, and SFGAdv.. and kinda SFoG and SFoT.. no Six Flags is 'Major' really. When you think of the best parks in the chain, those parks come to mind. Those parks, do not have one.
Boomerang at Knotts was its 4th coaster.. as Corkscrew was taken at in 1989. As I said.. a filler to get people into the park.
Blackpool?? Please lets not talk about PBB. That was the ONLY thing they could add in that cramped park. And it wasn't even new.. just a transplant from New Pleasureland Southport.
I got your point.. and you kinda helped prove mine.
B&M introduced their first coaster 17 years ago, and has built 74 coasters. Intamin introduced theirs in 1979, and has built 106 coasters. If you do the math, B&M has built more coasters a year average. More Intamins out there = it's been around longer.Intamin produced 17 in that time before B&M. Of those, Half are clones, several are kiddies, and some are actually decent size rides.
As much as i'd love to say those rides mean something, they don't. I can't name one, besides American Eagle and Shockwave, which was a major thrill ride. They honestly didn't do anything until 1994/1995.. after B&M made a foothold in the industry.
And even if we don't count those coasters at all, they still have more coasters produced since 1990 then B&M. So, my point stands.
Did you read the note at the bottom? "Days do not include intermittent downtime pertaining to minutes or short hours." To a general public park goer, hearing a ride is "experiencing technical difficulties" is just as bad as the ride being closed (opinion, of course.). Instead of just skipping a ride they've wasted their time on line.
Can you name a ride that doesn't have intermittent downtime that ranges from minutes to short hours?
Thought not.
You've contradicted your point that the line is never less than a half hour. All newer rides at all parks operate this way (spare Scream!)...on a crowded day there is a long line, on an empty day there isn't.I'm speaking to the Average day my friend. Average.
Here.. some stats from CoasterFanatics.com.. The average wait on TTD..
Avg. Wait Time: 56 - 71 Minutes
Best Time to Ride: 9am - 12pm
Perfect. I did indeed say the line was never less then half an hour.. on most average days.. to which I was correct.. being that I rode the ride this season. But, there are days, like at every park around the world, where rides lines are short.. very short.
But some people who have ridden 50 coasters can evaluate things and discuss rides in a better fashion than some people who have ridden 150.Thats definitely something to take into account when judging someone else's opinions.
The Storm Runner
11-04-2007, 09:36 AM
Aside from SFNE, SFMM, and SFGAdv.. and kinda SFoG and SFoT.. no Six Flags is 'Major' really. When you think of the best parks in the chain, those parks come to mind. Those parks, do not have one.
Boomerang at Knotts was its 4th coaster.. as Corkscrew was taken at in 1989. As I said.. a filler to get people into the park.
SFNE has Flashback: http://www.rcdb.com/id629.htm
SFMM has Deja, which is a clone.
SFGAdv, SFNE, and others are getting Mack clones next year, also. These can be found 20 places around the globe. Are they fun? Yeah, I like them.
Also, some other notable parks to have Boomerangs: SFTX, SFDK, Hersheypark, Walibi Word, Walibi Belgium, PowerPark, and many others. Also, Vekoma's been improving on their rides. Remember those lap bars on Boomerang in Austria or the new improved SLC restraints in Joisey?
Can you name a ride that doesn't have intermittent downtime that ranges from minutes to short hours?
Most definitely. Though, the only park I could actually be responsible for knowing for would be Hersheypark, where, all 15 times I've gone this year and 13 in 2006, all coasters (and all rides) have been open, if not the entire day, at some point during the day. All. I've seen Storm Runner down for technical issues once, maybe twice, no more, ever. And of course, it was in 2004 or 2005. Like you said, many rides' reliability improves over the years. It only took TTD, what, 5 years? :eek: And going back to B&M, I have seen Great Bear down a couple times, I'm afraid. One time a maintenance employee was using a blowtorch at the bottom of Great Bear's 124 ft drop. Then again, Storm Runner has a giant hole in one of the rails....
Perfect. I did indeed say the line was never less then half an hour.. on most average days.. to which I was correct.
That's sorta contradicting... it must have been to get that low of average. I'm sure on some random Saturdays the line was massive, like all parks.
The Facts say Intamin is more popular dear. More Intamins out there = more people choose Intamin.. plain and simple.
Really? Cause I've hinted at more B&M preferences than Intamin this thread...by a long shot. Intamin is popular, yes, but more popular? No. If you argue that this is just one measly site, then well, try a different one. You'll get the same results. It's not like all of us live in one area. We're from all over.
Wait wait.. i've RIDDEN Medusa. Yeahh.. proved that point quite well.
Uhhh, no you didn't. I remember hearing "I've heard Medusa was total crap" You've heard. Now you're saying you've ridden it? I'm flustered. I wouldn't say you proved this "point" well.
I'ma GOOD RIDE fanboy. Intamin makes the best.
This made me laugh. :) You say you're not an Intamin fanboy, just a "GOOD RIDE" fanboy. Then you say that Intamin's the best....right...
PS: S:TE was the biggest mistake in rollercoaster history. I blame Intamin for wanting to make the fastest, and Six Flags for pushing for it so bad.
Really? What about this? http://www.rcdb.com/ig2567.htm?picture=1 Yes, I agree. It was rushed, and it paid the cost. The first time they tried launching the car, it went a total of 3 feet. 3. Is that out of the station? It was to open in 96, but it opened for season pass holders in the fall, really opening to the public in 97. This isn't the only Intamin with a delayed debut. Maverick (and that quite big designing error), for example. Is there at B&M that has opened late due to designing errors?
In theory (not applied of course), you could interchange Floorless and Stand Up, Flyers and Inverts.. and it would work... kinda.
I could totally see stand-ups, doing this http://www.rcdb.com/ig605.htm?picture=1
Layouts are designed for each ride's trains. Do you see a stand up other than Shockwave with a zero-g roll? Cobra roll? Just like you don't see a floorless doing an inclined loop. I'm not gonna touch on the flyer and invert stuff. http://www.rcdb.com/ig3117.htm?picture=36 Says a lot, also do two simple words: Pretzel. Loop.
Hmm.. made of wood.. seems like a woodie. Why you guys over-analyze what makes a woodie a woodie is beyond me. GhostRider is rough because of the company who made it of course. Thats just a given.. lol
I always thought El Toro's "wood" was made in a science lab...
You find more and more often, people who like MF.. have ridden it less then 10 times.
Why's this? That's a rather odd statement...
[quote=SnooSnoo;3087] You wouldn't hire someone who's fresh out of college to be your CEO over someone who's been a CEO for 10 years now would you?? No.]
CEO, no. Heads of departments, maybe, if you're a Theme Park Management major (technically "hospitality management" , which covers hotels, golf courses, theme parks, etc.). That's kinda what I'm banking on...
Enough with the personal attacks. I prefer B&M with rides like Great Bear, Nitro, Medusa, Apollo's Chariot. Just something about the way B&M designs their rides, it gives it a certain flow or something. Intamin has some awesome coasters, though.
When I went to SFGAdv last summer, Kingda Ka had a 4 hour wait and El Toro 2.5 (for a random Tuesday??), while Nitro and Medusa were 15 minutes. Medusa and Nitro had the capacity (Nitro with 3 trains, Medusa 2) and the reliability (not breaking down at all) that the Intamins had. KK was running 2 trains, giving one to flashpass, and it had "technical difficulties" very often. El Toro was running 1 train, idk why the other one wasn't running...
B&M just designs their rides so precisely, it gives them a certain feeling. :) They're both outstanding, but in the long run, I'd rather have a B&M on my park map rather than an Intamin.
SnooSnoo
11-04-2007, 10:29 AM
SFNE has Flashback: http://www.rcdb.com/id629.htm
SFMM has Deja, which is a clone.
SFGAdv, SFNE, and others are getting Mack clones next year, also. These can be found 20 places around the globe. Are they fun? Yeah, I like them.
Very True.
Excuse me, while I was wrong about SFNE. They do have a SLC.. but that WAS from the days of Riverside park.. a small park with not many coasters.. pre-Six Flags.. ;)
Most definitely. Though, the only park I could actually be responsible for knowing for would be Hersheypark, where, all 15 times I've gone this year and 13 in 2006, all coasters (and all rides) have been open, if not the entire day, at some point during the day. All. I've seen Storm Runner down for technical issues once, maybe twice, no more, ever. And of course, it was in 2004 or 2005. Like you said, many rides' reliability improves over the years. It only took TTD, what, 5 years? :eek: And going back to B&M, I have seen Great Bear down a couple times, I'm afraid. One time a maintenance employee was using a blowtorch at the bottom of Great Bear's 124 ft drop. Then again, Storm Runner has a giant hole in one of the rails....1. Thank you for proving my point. You weren't there for EVERY operating day of the season now were you? No. You saw it go down at least a few times while you were there.. which means it happens.. all season. NO coaster is invincible.
2. TTD's technology was AFTER SR, and is much more complex then SR. Of COURSE its going to take longer then it to get healthy. While both are basically the same, the mechanics of launching a coaster from 0-120 and 0-70 are drastically more annoying to refine and get perfect.
That's sorta contradicting... it must have been to get that low of average. I'm sure on some random Saturdays the line was massive, like all parks.Lord.
AVERAGE!!! FOR GOD'S SAKES!!
During MOST DAYS OF THE SEASON, you can see the lines not dip below 30 minutes. And, if you'd read what I posted earlier, i've seen it range from 2-3 hours to walk-on.
Really? Cause I've hinted at more B&M preferences than Intamin this thread...by a long shot. Intamin is popular, yes, but more popular? No. If you argue that this is just one measly site, then well, try a different one. You'll get the same results. It's not like all of us live in one area. We're from all over.Hmm.. let me try Coasterforce.. the site that is really the site I'm on the most. Funny thing is, most of the people on there are huge fans of Intamin Rides.. El Toro, Balder, Maverick, Superman: Ride of Steel, and Expedition GeForce.
Of course you have those people who just adore B&M's.. but a majority of them, like a majority of you, have NOT ridden the best Intamins.
Try them sometime, they are quite good.
Uhhh, no you didn't. I remember hearing "I've heard Medusa was total crap" You've heard. Now you're saying you've ridden it? I'm flustered. I wouldn't say you proved this "point" well.Hmm..
I believe I said..
"Preference baby, preference. I've heard Medusa was total crap.. in fact, it is total crap, and a majority of the Batman clones are crap compared to some.. more so new to old."
You see that little 'is' in there.. that means, if you can understand simple english, that I did ride it. The first section was saying I heard it sucked, then the second section was me saying it DID suck, which, it in fact did.
Either read too much or don't read at all.
This made me laugh. :) You say you're not an Intamin fanboy, just a "GOOD RIDE" fanboy. Then you say that Intamin's the best....right...Hmm.. the best rides ARE Intamin? THINK now.. The Polls say it, people who've ridden them say it, its not very hard to see.
I could totally see stand-ups, doing this http://www.rcdb.com/ig605.htm?picture=1
Layouts are designed for each ride's trains. Do you see a stand up other than Shockwave with a zero-g roll? Cobra roll? Just like you don't see a floorless doing an inclined loop. I'm not gonna touch on the flyer and invert stuff. http://www.rcdb.com/ig3117.htm?picture=36 Says a lot, also do two simple words: Pretzel. Loop.1. http://www.rcdb.com/ig470.htm?picture=11
Hmm...
2. In theory.. not totally applied. OBVIOUSLY there are things aren't really applicable, I DID say that, just that BASICALLY, you could. VERY BASIC. Don't over complicate things or your going to hurt yourself.
I always thought El Toro's "wood" was made in a science lab...If you want to call the Earth 'God's Big Science Lab' then yes, your correct.
Why's this? That's a rather odd statement...It's just like the TTD/KK effect. People ride it a few times, thinks it's amazing, and love it forever.. especially if they've been on few rides with substance. Yet, try riding TTD for example, as many times as I have, and you'll realize its NOT that good, it is MUCH to short for the lines it has, and wasn't really worth the investment.
MF is much to that affect, but I feel it was worth the money paid. The drop is great, but Maverick's 105ft drop is better.. EASILY better.
Not much for thinking over there in PA now are ya?
You wouldn't hire someone who's fresh out of college to be your CEO over someone who's been a CEO for 10 years now would you?? No.
CEO, no. Heads of departments, maybe, if you're a Theme Park Management major (technically "hospitality management" , which covers hotels, golf courses, theme parks, etc.). That's kinda what I'm banking on...Probably the most pointless section of response on this whole thread.
Thank you. :rolleyes:
^ Dude, he owned your ***, and that's that. Making those kind of attacks not only makes you look like an idiot, it's also making your opinion far less credible. Your inconsistent, constantly changing your mind, you NEVER mean anything you say. And anything you say ends up being reversed because someone else proves your wrong. Just quit while your behind..
Steve K
11-04-2007, 11:34 AM
Quote:
Really? Cause I've hinted at more B&M preferences than Intamin this thread...by a long shot. Intamin is popular, yes, but more popular? No. If you argue that this is just one measly site, then well, try a different one. You'll get the same results. It's not like all of us live in one area. We're from all over.
Hmm.. let me try Coasterforce.. the site that is really the site I'm on the most. Funny thing is, most of the people on there are huge fans of Intamin Rides.. El Toro, Balder, Maverick, Superman: Ride of Steel, and Expedition GeForce.
Of course you have those people who just adore B&M's.. but a majority of them, like a majority of you, have NOT ridden the best Intamins.
Try them sometime, they are quite good.
Firstly, CoasterForce is predominantly Europeans. For every 1 B&M in Europe theres 5 Intamin Rides, if not more. Naturally, they are to favor Intamin over B&M. Most of those that rate those rides over here in the states haven't even been over here to begin with.
Now I may only be a kid, but at 22 years old, and have traveled all of the U.S., all of Europe, and some parts of Asia, I HAVE experienced a lot more rides than you probably have. In MY opinion, B&M are more well respected, more reliable, better designed, and provide a better ride time after time.
Don't get me wrong, there are some great Intamins out there, hell Expedition GeForce (and in my opinion better than S:RoS) is one of my favorites, however Black Mamba, Batman: The Ride (the original), Nemesis, Sheikra, Raging Bull, Apollos Chariot - are better rides than the majority of the Intamin's I've experience in all areas from reliability, layout, and experience.
Honestly, until you graduate college.. and have to rely on yourself to live or you.. don't.. thats when I classify you as an adult.So I'm 22...traveled around more than you probably ever will...in the military for 2 years now...does that still make me a kid because I didn't go to college? The law in most places says you are an adult at age 18. You are given responsibility, decision making ability, freedom to do as you wish with nobody telling you what to do (obviously within legal reasoning), and are free to 'go out on your own'. THAT is what makes you an adult. But this is a coaster related discussion and this is for a whole 'nother debate.
The Storm Runner
11-04-2007, 12:11 PM
1. Thank you for proving my point. You weren't there for EVERY operating day of the season now were you? No. You saw it go down at least a few times while you were there.. which means it happens.. all season. NO coaster is invincible.
2. TTD's technology was AFTER SR, and is much more complex then SR. Of COURSE its going to take longer then it to get healthy. While both are basically the same, the mechanics of launching a coaster from 0-120 and 0-70 are drastically more annoying to refine and get perfect.
1. That's just SR and Great Bear. I said, "all coasters (and all rides) have been open, if not the entire day, at some point during the day." I have never seen LR, Comet, Trailblazer, Wildcat, or Wild Mouse down. Ever. I know they may have been down when I wasn't there, but even when I hear my friends' stories of their trips, they aren't down.
2. TTD-2003
SR-2004
Get your facts right. :)
"Preference baby, preference. I've heard Medusa was total crap.. in fact, it is total crap, and a majority of the Batman clones are crap compared to some.. more so new to old."
You see that little 'is' in there.. that means, if you can understand simple english, that I did ride it. The first section was saying I heard it sucked, then the second section was me saying it DID suck, which, it in fact did.
1. Then why did you even put "I've heard Medusa was total crap" ? lol
2. Maybe it was different when you rode it, cause when I rode it, it was awesome...just sayin.
Either read too much or don't read at all.
You complained on an earlier page that people here read too much.... and I did read it.
Hmm.. the best rides ARE Intamin? THINK now.. The Polls say it, people who've ridden them say it, its not very hard to see.
What I said was geared towards you saying that you are a "Good ride" fanboy, neither Intamin nor B&M, "attempting" to not be biased, which was completely obliterated by the next sentence.
1. http://www.rcdb.com/ig470.htm?picture=11
Hmm...
2. In theory.. not totally applied. OBVIOUSLY there are things aren't really applicable, I DID say that, just that BASICALLY, you could. VERY BASIC. Don't over complicate things or your going to hurt yourself.
Yes, that's Riddler Revenge...soooo? That is called a corkscrew. A zero-g roll is http://www.rcdb.com/ig502.htm?picture=3 . Corkscrews on B&M stand ups have been around since the beginning of B&M. The G's would really hurt if you tried putting a stand up train on a tight-radius zero-g roll of that of a floorless.
"In theory.. not totally applied." That makes no sense! Just read it to yourself for a second. lol Need I explain more? That makes absolutely no sense. Why would it just be a random theory and not totally applied? Why bother saying it?
Btw, I'm known to overcomplicate things, and I have yet to hurt myself. :)
If you want to call the Earth 'God's Big Science Lab' then yes, your correct.
Haha, you're funny. I meant, I thought the material of El Toro did not come from a tree. Way to overcomplicate things by coming up with some sarcasm.
It's just like the TTD/KK effect. People ride it a few times, thinks it's amazing, and love it forever.. especially if they've been on few rides with substance. Yet, try riding TTD for example, as many times as I have, and you'll realize its NOT that good, it is MUCH to short for the lines it has, and wasn't really worth the investment.
TTD short? Noooo...
Not much for thinking over there in PA now are ya?]
No comment.
[quote=SnooSnoo;3094] Thank you. :rolleyes:
No, thank you. ;)
jolash
11-04-2007, 12:24 PM
http://www.rcdb.com/ig814.htm?picture=12
Stand-up with a zero-g roll. :)
It seems like some of you are trying to say that B&M/Intamins either ARE/AREN'T better, as in stating a fact. It also seems you're backing up these statements by pointing out the numbers in polls and other rankings. Polls do not create a fact. They are a collection of opinions. The fact is that whatever people prefer is their own opinion. I happen to think that Raptor is a fantastic ride. Many do not. This is my opinion though. I believe that Maverick does not suffer as a ride from the lack of theming. Many disagree, but it's my own opinion.
Ha, This has turned into an "Everyone attack SnooSnoo for loving Intamin!" Thread. Give the man/kid a break! ;)
I think we all need to chill out and stop argu..err..debating. I can tell some people are taking this to heart. *Cough* Jake..
Can we come to the honest conclusion that both manufactures make excellent rides, and that is that? Why must we argue about who's the best?
Intamin = B&M.
-Alex
sirloin
11-04-2007, 12:34 PM
LOL!
I'm sorry.. but that made me laugh.
And yes.. 21 year old people are kids. 20 years on this Earth is NOTHING. Most of the people I know haven't experienced ANYTHING, which would include myself.Twenty years on this earth is hardly nothing, my friend. I've experienced a great deal. I think 153 coasters is a good number, no?
And I'm glad I made you laugh. I like to throw humor into my posts. You'll notice that after you've been here for a bit.
Hmm.. I'd say.. the rides are cheap, easy to manufacture, and very good for smaller parks.
THATS why there are so many boomerangs/SLC's. Do you see any SLC's or Boomerangs at many bigger parks? No.
Cheap way to get money into your park. Geauga Lake, Lake Compounce.. all were helped by this method.
Pretty smart indeed.First, Geauga Lake could easily be considered a big park, operating as many as ten coasters. They saw both the Boomerang and SLC as good additions. But let's pick better examples. Hersheypark still likes Sidewinder, and they're pretty darn big. Six Flags over Texas seems to like theirs. You need to start thinking back to when those suckers were put in, not in today's context. They were a heck of alot better than the Intamins of their day.
The Facts say Intamin is more popular dear. More Intamins out there = more people choose Intamin.. plain and simple.Intamin has 32 more coasters than B&M (counting relocations for both manufacturers as separate rides), tracing back to 1978. B&M has 9 different styles on offer right now (counting floorless dive machines and the new-style seating hyper as separate from the default configurations they were based on). Intamin has 12, not including some of the different styles they used to offer. Most of them don't even sell anymore. Meanwhile, all of B&Ms styles are still being purchased, minus the standup. 8 different styles being built in recent years. I don't count near that many for Intamin. Thank heaven for their rockets, or they'd never survive.
Oh, and don't call me "dear" or "darling."
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ragsterLog.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dragster420/TopThrillDragsterLog.jpg)
You, my friend, can shut your mouth.
TTD started bad, and has improved DRASTICALLY.
And I have been on TTD on short days.. i'm making reference to average days. I rode TTD some 25 times this summer, didn't wait over 1 hour.. because I never went on a crowded day. I've seen lines of 2-3 hours, and I've walked on to the train on several occasions.No, I'd like to keep it open. That log only counts the major breakdowns on the ride, not all the times it goes down for 15 minutes or so. See, I worked on it once (2006), and I know that the ride breaks down alot more than that. But if you choose not to believe me, you could always reference the disclaimer at the bottom of that log. Good try, though. I don't care if it improved. It shouldn't need to. B&Ms don't need to improve. They work properly the first time around.
You think that has to do with rollercoasters? Do you live in Ohio? I happen to.. and less attendance has to do with gas prices, local economies, and many other things which has nothing to do if CP adds a new ride. Yes, it can boost it.. but for a park that popular as it is, decreases can be explained many other ways then a new ride. Gas prices are universal, and other parks don't seem to have those problems. Oh, and I'm sorry the Cleveland and Detroit economies suck. I guess what you're saying is that a brand new $25,000,000 Intamin isn't good enough to hold people's attention and keep them coming. So if the ride were really that good, people would still come. Anyway you slice or dice it, it was a poor addition, because why spend the money if people aren't willing to spend the money to ride it? I thought they were supposed to be very popular. Guess not.
Interesting, though. I find it quite convenient that the economy was really good in 2003 for one year only and has been a nightmare ever since. Interesting, though, that Michigan's Adventure saw an 18% increase in 2005. The two are both just as close to Detroit, but one seemed to really be a winner while the other one saw its attendance drop for the second year in a row. Kings Island's went up 7% in 2004. Guess it's a Sandusky thing.
You sure? Name a B&M as good as S:RoS?
Wait.. you love your beautiful little B&M's.. so of course you could.
PREFERENCE darling.. preference.
Fact is, S:RoS has had BETTER reviews then Nitro consistently since either ride was opened.. and S:RoS was cheaper (I believe so.. check me on that). So.. I guess my point still stands.
Or maybe you missed your medication? Should get that checked.You sure? Name an Intamin as good as Kumba.
Wait...you love your beautiful little Intamins...so of course you could.
Works both ways, buddy.
Nitro consistently gets better reviews than either of the other two Intamin Supermen (well, now one's just Ride of Steel, but still). Same for Apollo's Chariot. And last year's poll by Mitch Hawker had 10 B&Ms in the top 20 over Intamin's 9. Millennium Force got beaten by a couple of little inverts, even. Interesting.
My medication is fine, thanks.
Wait.. what? First part I don't get.
Yes.. my opinions always do seem to cause someone to get mad. Look at this thread.. lol.. but I stand by them as how I feel. And if you have a problem, you know what you can sit and rotate on.
My thanks.. and that's not sarcasm.The first part was in reference to a comment you made that I'd obviously not been to a few parks mentioned by you that had seemingly lousy B&Ms, because if I had, I'd be agreeing with you. My first comment indicated that I've been to all of 'em, and I found Intamins I didn't like, while even rides like Batman-The Dark Knight, Great Bear, etc., were still alot of fun in my opinion.
And if you didn't have opinions that I completely disagreed with, we wouldn't be participating in what I consider to be the best thread we've had around here in quite some time.
Yeah.. I have bias. I like GOOD rides. Intamin has better then the best B&M's.
Fact.
The polls say it, most enthusiasts say it.. don't see the problem.I reference my above comment. Get your facts checked.
Heck, let's go top 25. B&M climbs to 13. Intamin only hits 10.
Let's entertain ourselves, though, and go for the Golden Ticket top 25. Intamin hits 10, and I'm being extra generous by throwing in the 2 wooden coasters of their that hit the top 25 for that category. B&M hits 12. Ouch. That's 2 polls where B&M takes the cake, and Intamin got 2 bonus points from me for the Golden Tickets.
That has to do with Cedar Point's operations. They have a problem with running things when they aren't safe. If there is a problem, they don't open the ride.
Or you could have just gone at a HORRIBLE time. I went to CP 19 times this summer.. I didn't have more then 1 or 2 breakdowns on MF.. and nothing over 20 minutes on Maverick.Millennium Force was down for more than a week in 2006. It's almost becoming a trend, and I had faith in Millennium Force.
Yes.. quite a few have had problems.. but i'd go for the problem starts with the park, not the company.I guess every park with a rocket must have a terrible maintenance department. Not true, my friend.
Again, I don't care that they've improved. That's no good to me if I'm a park owner. It was supposed to work right the first time.
Joke anyone?
I'll take the opinion of someone who's been on 150 coasters then 50 coasters any day of the week.
Why?
Quality my friend. Now this all depends on what they've ridden, because if they've done nothing but Florida.. they haven't got a clue about Intamins.. ect. ect.
People who've been around the block know whats going on a bit more then someone who hasn't. Experience counts for something, now doesn't it?For once we agree. Until you've done a little bit of everything, your opinion won't way too heavily on me, either. I want some experience behind an argument before I really take it into serious consideration.
ntamin produced 17 in that time before B&M. Of those, Half are clones, several are kiddies, and some are actually decent size rides.
As much as i'd love to say those rides mean something, they don't. I can't name one, besides American Eagle and Shockwave, which was a major thrill ride. They honestly didn't do anything until 1994/1995.. after B&M made a foothold in the industry.
And even if we don't count those coasters at all, they still have more coasters produced since 1990 then B&M. So, my point stands.No, it still doesn't. You still need to break it down into the high-end thrillers, which is all that B&M does.
Can you name a ride that doesn't have intermittent downtime that ranges from minutes to short hours?
Thought not.You're right, but having worked at Cedar Point and Geauga Lake, I can tell you the B&Ms still didn't have near the downtime the Intamins did. Intamins have intermittent downtime alot more than they should. Can you point out B&Ms with the number of massive downtimes TTD seemed to have? Thought not.
2. TTD's technology was AFTER SR, and is much more complex then SR. Of COURSE its going to take longer then it to get healthy. While both are basically the same, the mechanics of launching a coaster from 0-120 and 0-70 are drastically more annoying to refine and get perfect.Might want to get that checked. TTD is 2003, while Storm Runner is a year it's junior. I'm also willing to bet Storm Runner's launching technology is more advanced than that of TTD or even Xcelerator, because it's known for being one of the better rockets reliability-wise.
Hmm.. the best rides ARE Intamin? THINK now.. The Polls say it, people who've ridden them say it, its not very hard to see.Said it before, and will say it again. The best ride or two is an Intamin. Not an overly impressive statistic, as it's pretty easy to beat with the right layout. The best rides in general are B&M. Much harder to take that title.
1. http://www.rcdb.com/ig470.htm?picture=11I see two big dive loops...no zero-g roll.
Wow. I think I set an RCPro record. Before everyone rejoices that someone finally dished out yet another long book in response to SnooSnoo, talking smack is pretty lame unless you dish out a major rebuttal to go with it. If any of you are taking this personally (which I don't think SnooSnoo is), or are making it personal (which several of you are), back off and grow up. It's easy to say someone owned SnooSnoo, but it doesn't mean alot if you weren't that person. Quit talking about owning people and actually do it.
BTW, Dan and TSR, you all are doing well, and the same to you as well, SnooSnoo. You're forcing me to throw out my A-game. I like it when people do that. Keep 'em coming, unless, of course, I convert you to my side. LOL!
Oh, and Arez, what a cop-out post. This thread is supposed to be a debate. Asking us all to reconcile our differences and sing cumbaya is a pretty lame suggestion. As far as giving SnooSnoo a break, would you be saying that if there was someone else on his side doing half as good a job as he is? He's the lifeblood of this thread. After all, why have forums if we can't debate? Debates are the best threads here! If you don't wanna run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.
SnooSnoo
11-04-2007, 01:51 PM
Wow.. prepare for another long post.. yay!! :)
^ Dude, he owned your ***, and that's that. Making those kind of attacks not only makes you look like an idiot, it's also making your opinion far less credible. Your inconsistent, constantly changing your mind, you NEVER mean anything you say. And anything you say ends up being reversed because someone else proves your wrong. Just quit while your behind..Quite my child.. let the big kids talk.. ;)
Firstly, CoasterForce is predominantly Europeans. For every 1 B&M in Europe theres 5 Intamin Rides, if not more. Naturally, they are to favor Intamin over B&M. Most of those that rate those rides over here in the states haven't even been over here to begin with.
Now I may only be a kid, but at 22 years old, and have traveled all of the U.S., all of Europe, and some parts of Asia, I HAVE experienced a lot more rides than you probably have. In MY opinion, B&M are more well respected, more reliable, better designed, and provide a better ride time after time.
Don't get me wrong, there are some great Intamins out there, hell Expedition GeForce (and in my opinion better than S:RoS) is one of my favorites, however Black Mamba, Batman: The Ride (the original), Nemesis, Sheikra, Raging Bull, Apollos Chariot - are better rides than the majority of the Intamin's I've experience in all areas from reliability, layout, and experience.I'd say CF is more like 60% European, 30% USA, 10% everwhere else.
Thing about all that is that many of them have Dragon Khan, Black Mamba as their #2 or even higher. In fact, seeing the Top 10's of my fellow CFers, most of their Top 10 is predominately B&M.. Air, Dragon, Nemmy..ect. Of course.. most of those B&M's aren't really of top quality as it is.
The thing I'm trying to say is that, for those who've ridden the best Intamin's in Europe, they pick the Intamin over a B&M. Even for some who've been to the USA, Florida, or the East Coast, they still pick the better/best Intamin over the B&M.
That says something, even if they have more Intamin's over there.
I have said in the past, B&M produces the more reliable thrill machines which provide a good thrill and rarely go bad, while Intamin make the INSANE machines.. and the complete duds (Rita/Stealth.. ;))
So I'm 22...traveled around more than you probably ever will...in the military for 2 years now...does that still make me a kid because I didn't go to college? The law in most places says you are an adult at age 18. You are given responsibility, decision making ability, freedom to do as you wish with nobody telling you what to do (obviously within legal reasoning), and are free to 'go out on your own'. THAT is what makes you an adult. But this is a coaster related discussion and this is for a whole 'nother debate.Agreed.. and I did say their was exceptions. Hey, I have the utmost respect for anyone in the military, as I have friends and family serving America. You are a man as soon as you shipped out my friend.
Anyway.. to begin with.. saying 'kid' was meant to be a joke and wasn't really meant to be anything more. People just blew that up.. way past what it should have been.. lets end it at that.
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1. That's just SR and Great Bear. I said, "all coasters (and all rides) have been open, if not the entire day, at some point during the day." I have never seen LR, Comet, Trailblazer, Wildcat, or Wild Mouse down. Ever. I know they may have been down when I wasn't there, but even when I hear my friends' stories of their trips, they aren't down.
2. TTD-2003
SR-2004
Get your facts right. Excuse me.. I got caught up and put after instead of before. I see that now and wonder wth I was thinking.. lol.. Thanks for pointing that out.
PS: All those rides break down.. at some point. You aren't at the ride EVERY operating hour of the whole year now are you? No.
1. Then why did you even put "I've heard Medusa was total crap" ? lol
2. Maybe it was different when you rode it, cause when I rode it, it was awesome...just sayin.1. I heard that before I rode it, and it just confirmed it for me once I rode it.
2. Nah.. just the fact that I've ridden better Floorless rides. Dominator blew Medusa away IMO.
What I said was geared towards you saying that you are a "Good ride" fanboy, neither Intamin nor B&M, "attempting" to not be biased, which was completely obliterated by the next sentence.Yes.. good ride.. as in any ride that is good. JUST because I said Intamin has better rides does not mean I'm biased. Just the fact that, from what i've seen from polls, other enthusiasts, and my own person experience, Intamin have the best rides.
Plain and simple darling.
I honestly have no bias.. to be totally honest. People seem to misconstrue my feelings toward Intamin as "OMG, He's defending Intamin over B&M.. he must LOVE Intamin!!".. no.. I love having a good time on great rides.. isn't that why we are enthusiasts??
I see this same problem when I defend CP in an argument.. I'm automatically billed a CP fanboy JUST because of that.. its really stupid tbh.
"In theory.. not totally applied." That makes no sense! Just read it to yourself for a second. lol Need I explain more? That makes absolutely no sense. Why would it just be a random theory and not totally applied? Why bother saying it?Do you know what a theory is?
"In common usage, people (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Laity) often use the word (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Generative_grammar) theory to signify a conjecture (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Conjecture), an opinion (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Opinion), or a speculation (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Speculation). In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Fact); in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Truth) descriptions of reality (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Reality). This usage of theory leads to the common statement "It's not a fact, it's only a theory." True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Epistemology) as statements which would be true independently of what people think about them."
I'm basically saying it wouldn't be applied in real life, because that wouldn't be practical, but it COULD work..
Haha, you're funny. I meant, I thought the material of El Toro did not come from a tree. Way to overcomplicate things by coming up with some sarcasm.But it does? Last time I checked, there is no 'scientifically created' wood. All wood comes from trees. Don't see where your trying to go with that?
----------------------------------
Ha, This has turned into an "Everyone attack SnooSnoo for loving Intamin!" Thread. Give the man/kid a break! ;)
I think we all need to chill out and stop argu..err..debating. I can tell some people are taking this to heart. *Cough* Jake..Man/kid.. lol
Nah.. I like healthy discussion. A lone few have resulted in lowly insults to try and prove a point.. which I've disregarded for the most part. Its just that i'm the only person on Intamin's side and everyone is on B&M's side.
BTW.. unless you've insulted me, anything I've said to anyone was meant as a JOKE to lighten the mood. Getting too serious in a discussion can make you want to shoot someone. Trust me on that one..
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Twenty years on this earth is hardly nothing, my friend. I've experienced a great deal. I think 153 coasters is a good number, no?
And I'm glad I made you laugh. I like to throw humor into my posts. You'll notice that after you've been here for a bit.
Yeah, we've all experienced a bit.. but say you unexpectedly died.. anyone older.. hell anyone even our age would say.. they were so young, just a kid.
I've been over this.. but just wanted to say again.. we are young my friend.. very young.. we have a long life in front of us hopefully.
First, Geauga Lake could easily be considered a big park, operating as many as ten coasters. They saw both the Boomerang and SLC as good additions. But let's pick better examples. Hersheypark still likes Sidewinder, and they're pretty darn big. Six Flags over Texas seems to like theirs. You need to start thinking back to when those suckers were put in, not in today's context. They were a heck of alot better than the Intamins of their day.Nah.. it couldn't. The ONLY reason Geauga Lake had that many coasters was because of the stupidity of Six Flags. The SLC and Boomerang were there back when it was JUST Geauga Lake.. I remember the advertisments, I'm from the area.. it was just a small, regional park.. which is what is SHOULD have stayed.. and now the park is all but dead.
Again, HP and SFoT got the rides when they were smaller parks, not built up yet. Fact is, you don't see major parks adding SLC's/Boomerangs past their younger years. You see tiny parks adding them to gain money.
That was true then, its true now.
Thank heaven for their rockets, or they'd never survive.
Oh, and don't call me "dear" or "darling."I'm sorry DARLING.. :)
I wouldn't go that far. Intamin produces much more then JUST accelerators. Their 4D's, many of their Flat rides, and several other versions have been offered as of late. Piraten (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/community/id4038.htm) and Fahrenheit (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/community/id4049.htm) are some good examples of that. Its just the fact that the Accelerator is popular. Its just like when B&M was selling their Standups.. they were popular at the time.
Nitro consistently gets better reviews than either of the other two Intamin Supermen (well, now one's just Ride of Steel, but still). Same for Apollo's Chariot. And last year's poll by Mitch Hawker had 10 B&Ms in the top 20 over Intamin's 9. Millennium Force got beaten by a couple of little inverts, even. Interesting.
My medication is fine, thanks.
Why consistently reference Millennium Force? I do not understand this mentality by enthusiasts? The ride is a piss poor excuse for a top coaster.
And last time I checked Mitch Hawkers Poll for 2006.. MF wasn't beaten by a bunch of little inverts to begin with?
http://www.ushsho.com/steelrollercoasterpollresults2006.htm
Hmm.. it also seems as if.. 1, 2, 4, and 6 are all Intamin.
Hmm.. doesn't really matter if Nitro or AC are reviewed well does it? It seems as if S:RoS, Millennium Force, and Goliath are all reviewed higher now doesn't it?
Hmm....
The first part was in reference to a comment you made that I'd obviously not been to a few parks mentioned by you that had seemingly lousy B&Ms, because if I had, I'd be agreeing with you. My first comment indicated that I've been to all of 'em, and I found Intamins I didn't like, while even rides like Batman-The Dark Knight, Great Bear, etc., were still alot of fun in my opinion.
And if you didn't have opinions that I completely disagreed with, we wouldn't be participating in what I consider to be the best thread we've had around here in quite some time.Preferences. Its all personal opinion of course.
Agreed.. btw..
I reference my above comment. Get your facts checked.
Heck, let's go top 25. B&M climbs to 13. Intamin only hits 10.
Let's entertain ourselves, though, and go for the Golden Ticket top 25. Intamin hits 10, and I'm being extra generous by throwing in the 2 wooden coasters of their that hit the top 25 for that category. B&M hits 12. Ouch. That's 2 polls where B&M takes the cake, and Intamin got 2 bonus points from me for the Golden Tickets.Why look so broad? Last time I checked, no one cares who finished 16th in the Olympics.. all about the Top few now isn't it?
It would seem, the higher in both polls we go, the more Intamins we see?
Hmm..
Millennium Force was down for more than a week in 2006. It's almost becoming a trend, and I had faith in Millennium Force.It would seem, the taller the machine/experimental the technology was when the ride opened, the more problems it has.
This year, neither TTD or MF had lengthy breakdowns due to anything.
I commend CP for trying to make them the best rides they can.. and it is noticeable over time.
I guess every park with a rocket must have a terrible maintenance department. Not true, my friend.
Again, I don't care that they've improved. That's no good to me if I'm a park owner. It was supposed to work right the first time.As far as i've seen, not every rocket has had a major problem? Desert Race? Storm Runner, Superman: Escape, Zaturn.. all seem to be peachy now don't they?
Can you point out B&Ms with the number of massive downtimes TTD seemed to have? Thought not.
Can you name a B&M with as complex technology as TTD has? Thought not.
Wow. I think I set an RCPro record. Before everyone rejoices that someone finally dished out yet another long book in response to SnooSnoo, talking smack is pretty lame unless you dish out a major rebuttal to go with it. If any of you are taking this personally (which I don't think SnooSnoo is), or are making it personal (which several of you are), back off and grow up. It's easy to say someone owned SnooSnoo, but it doesn't mean alot if you weren't that person. Quit talking about owning people and actually do it.Agreed.. come on now guys.. just a bit of fun. I take nothing personally on here.. unless you talk about my mamma.. then i'ma have to hurt you.. :rolleyes:
BTW, Dan and TSR, you all are doing well, and the same to you as well, SnooSnoo. You're forcing me to throw out my A-game. I like it when people do that. Keep 'em coming, unless, of course, I convert you to my side. LOL!
Oh, and Arez, what a cop-out post. This thread is supposed to be a debate. Asking us all to reconcile our differences and sing cumbaya is a pretty lame suggestion. As far as giving SnooSnoo a break, would you be saying that if there was someone else on his side doing half as good a job as he is? He's the lifeblood of this thread. After all, why have forums if we can't debate? Debates are the best threads here! If you don't wanna run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.I like to bring out the best.. adds to the fun.. :)
PS: Are there ANY Intamin supporters out there??
If not.. who cares.. I can hold down the fort.. :)
The Storm Runner
11-04-2007, 02:24 PM
PS: All those rides break down.. at some point. You aren't at the ride EVERY operating hour of the whole year now are you? No.
If the parks maintain it well enough and keep it in perfect condition over the offseason, along with perfecting everything before the park opens, then it won't close.
1. I heard that before I rode it, and it just confirmed it for me once I rode it.
2. Nah.. just the fact that I've ridden better Floorless rides. Dominator blew Medusa away IMO.
That doesn't mean it's crap though. It simply means Dominator is better than good Medusa.
I honestly have no bias..
PS: Are there ANY Intamin supporters out there??
If not.. who cares.. I can hold down the fort..
... that's completely not biased. ;)
"In common usage, people (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Laity) often use the word (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Generative_grammar) theory to signify a conjecture (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Conjecture), an opinion (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Opinion), or a speculation (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Speculation). In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Fact); in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Truth) descriptions of reality (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Reality). This usage of theory leads to the common statement "It's not a fact, it's only a theory." True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/wiki/Epistemology) as statements which would be true independently of what people think about them."
I'm basically saying it wouldn't be applied in real life, because that wouldn't be practical, but it COULD work..
In common usage is different than the scientific term. A theory is an educated explanation for something (hypothesis) that has been tested over and over. For exmaple, global warming.
So you think it could happen, have evidence it could happen, but it wouldn't work....right...lol
Is El Toro made of wood that comes from trees? I thought it wasn't, but I guess I'm mistaking that for wood cut with lasers and premade before going to the site.
Can you name a B&M with as complex technology as TTD has? Thought not.
Which is why B&Ms are more reliable. They don't. Incredible Hulk has probably the most complex technology, along with the flyers. But their systems are so much simpler, it doesn't have to do as much. The computer's not on overload, so it's nice and happy and cooperative. :)
sirloin
11-04-2007, 02:44 PM
Again, HP and SFoT got the rides when they were smaller parks, not built up yet. Fact is, you don't see major parks adding SLC's/Boomerangs past their younger years. You see tiny parks adding them to gain money.
That was true then, its true now.I'm just saying to look at things in context. They aren't hot stuff anymore, but they were the cream of the crop when they were introduced.
Well, the Boomerangs were, anyway.
I wouldn't go that far. Intamin produces much more then JUST accelerators. Their 4D's, many of their Flat rides, and several other versions have been offered as of late. Piraten (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/community/id4038.htm) and Fahrenheit (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/community/id4049.htm) are some good examples of that. Its just the fact that the Accelerator is popular. Its just like when B&M was selling their Standups.. they were popular at the time.I don't care how many they offer. Only a small few are successful. B&Ms megas are the hypers that are selling right now.
And last time I checked Mitch Hawkers Poll for 2006.. MF wasn't beaten by a bunch of little inverts to begin with?
http://www.ushsho.com/steelrollercoa...esults2006.htm (http://www.ushsho.com/steelrollercoasterpollresults2006.htm)
Hmm.. it also seems as if.. 1, 2, 4, and 6 are all Intamin.
Hmm.. doesn't really matter if Nitro or AC are reviewed well does it? It seems as if S:RoS, Millennium Force, and Goliath are all reviewed higher now doesn't it?I'd hardly call Nemesis big, and even Katun is small on the scale of Millennium Force.
And last time I checked, you need more than a small handful of coasters to make yourself a better manufacturer. It takes consistency, which is why I mention the top 20 or top 25. B&M do it time and again, and that's why I think they're better overall. Intamin has fantastic rides, yes, but there's a few completely and utterly lame additions built by them, too. As I've said before, I've ridden terrible Intamins, but B&M has yet to disappoint.
Why look so broad? Last time I checked, no one cares who finished 16th in the Olympics.. all about the Top few now isn't it?
It would seem, the higher in both polls we go, the more Intamins we see?
Hmm..There aren't 60+ competitors in one Olympic event, now are there? The more rides available, the broader you need to look. When you're on the scale that we're discussing, you need to include more.
Since you like athletics, let me put it this way: you can't win a game on starters alone. You need to have bench strength, my friend. Intamin has some absolutely epic rides, but plenty of completely and utterly crummy ones to go with them. For me, B&M has great rides and absolutely fantastic rides. Nothing below that. I think that for the number of rides they built, it's fair to go all the way down to number 25 on a massive poll like Mitch Hawker's or the Golden Tickets.
Good for you if you have a couple of good players. I have a good team.
It would seem, the taller the machine/experimental the technology was when the ride opened, the more problems it has.
This year, neither TTD or MF had lengthy breakdowns due to anything.
I commend CP for trying to make them the best rides they can.. and it is noticeable over time.I still don't think TTD even remotely approaches the levels it should. Doesn't run as often as it needs to, and that's all that matters to me. And even if it did, it's the end of the 2007 season. That ride opened in 2003. Even if I was generous and allotted a certain amount of time to improve it, 4 years is way too long.
As far as i've seen, not every rocket has had a major problem? Desert Race? Storm Runner, Superman: Escape, Zaturn.. all seem to be peachy now don't they?Good for them if they are. Still took Intamin several years to finally get things working properly.
Can you name a B&M with as complex technology as TTD has? Thought not.Nope, and I don't think I have to. I think the fact that there are only two rides on that magnitude says more than I'll ever need to. Intamin and Cedar Fair got greedy, and paid dearly for it. Had TTD and Kingda Ka not been built, you'd find me attacking rockets alot less than I already am. Intamin thought they could handle something they couldn't. Almost happened with B&M and Anheuser-Busch. B&M wasn't gonna have the ride ready in 1992, so AB went with Arrow and B&M came one year later with Kumba. Kumba still receives wonderful ratings, and it's because of patience and hard work.
And really, did that advanced technology really pay off? With all the money they've put into that thing? Heck, B&Ms, and even other Intamins, that run with far simpler technology still receive better ratings. Doesn't matter how cool the technology is if the ride using it isn't the hottest thing around.
B&M doesn't build wildly advanced rides, with a couple of exceptions. They build rides with simple technology that people like more. Find another route, my friend, because you won't win there. It's the Intamins with the simple technology that everybody loves, not the wildly advanced ones (save for Maverick and a couple smaller rockets).
PS: Are there ANY Intamin supporters out there??Me. I just support B&M more.
It is my opinion, though, and I've said this before, that the two co-exist far better than they compete. A great park should have a balance of both. I just think that B&M is the more reliable, more trustworthy, and more quality-focused manufacturer, and that's why I give my edge to them.
Can you name a ride that doesn't have intermittent downtime that ranges from minutes to short hours?Some rides have more and some rides have less, that’s what I’m trying to point out.
Again, HP and SFoT got the rides when they were smaller parks, not built up yet. Fact is, you don't see major parks adding SLC's/Boomerangs past their younger years. You see tiny parks adding them to gain money. I’d like to point out that today’s Boomerangs are Déjà vu’s. Many people love those coasters, but in twenty years or thirty years, will they be as popular? As Sirloin said earlier, perspective. But that also makes me thing that B&M rides from the early 90’s are still ranking at the top of charts today.
Yes.. good ride.. as in any ride that is good. JUST because I said Intamin has better rides does not mean I'm biased. Just the fact that, from what i've seen from polls, other enthusiasts, and my own person experience, Intamin have the best rides. Therefore, you prefer Intamin. Therefore, your comments are bound to be biased. I don’t prefer either one. I’d rather ride S:ROS over Vortex any day, and I’d rather ride Nemesis over Stealth any day. It doesn’t matter who made it, as long as it’s a good ride, I’m on it.
I think the number of coasters each company has built in the last 17 years is threw you off a while back, you can’t really prove a point with it. Let's have a look. I’ll also use it to prove some other points.
1990
B&M opened up Iron Wolf, their first ever coaster, a standup. Intamin opened only one coaster that year as well, Shockwave, which is now gone. Shockwave was also a standup. I'd call the companies even this year, although Intamin's standups don't prove to be as successful as B&M's.
1991
B&M builds Vortex, another standing coaster. Intamin builds Pegasus at Efteling, a wooden coaster I don't know much about, but it looks like fun. One company hasn't jumped ahead of the other, but Intamin has already showed its wider scope of rides.
1992
B&M not only builds another Vortex, but also introduces the invert. Batman: The Ride, which is now one of the highest quality cloned rides, was born. Intamin builds Jupiter at Kijima Amusement Park, a huge wooden coaster. Again, this ride isn't well-known. I'd say B&M takes the cake this year for their debut of the Invert.
1993
Three rides from B&M this year. First off, another Batman. Then, Kumba, the introduction of the company's sit down coaster, blew the world away. The ride continues to amaze and is high enough quality to remain in Florida. Top Gun, another Invert, was built as well. Intamin also builds three rides this year. Batman The Escape at Six Flags AstroWorld, another standup; Indiana Jones in Disneyland Resort Paris, a smaller themed coaster; and Lightning Bolt, another small themed ride which is now closed. B&M obviously is doing better right now on the coaster front with the introduction introduction of the sit down. They also seem like the company 'pushing the envelope' right now.
1994
B&M has four new rides. Nemesis was built, known as one of the greatest inverts ever, to this day. Two Batman clones and Raptor were also built. Intamin only introduced two. Dragon at La Ronde, a small family ride; and Shockwave, the only standup to have a zero-g roll. B&M wins again for Nemesis.
1995
B&M produces two more Batman clones, as well as Dragon Khan, the first 8 inversion roller coaster. Intamin builds four coasters. A standup, a small indoor coaster, an outdoor family coaster, and a massive wooden coaster by the name of White Cyclone. So, B&M has three 'big' coasters, and Intamin has two.
1996
B&M comes out with three. A Raptor clone, Mantis, and Montu. Just Montu is enough to give mad props to the company this year, but Montu is their first larger standup as well. Intamin also has three new rides. Skull Mountain, a family roller coaster; Sky Plaza Comet, a pipeline coaster (those never caught on, did they?) that is a mere 20 feet high; and Cop Car Chase, a looping dueling coaster obviously inferior to Kumba (B&M's looping match-up). B&M has the upper coaster hand again...
1997
B&M has five new ones this year. Two Batman Clones, another huge standup, the highly regarded Pyrenees, and Alpengeist, the biggest B&M invert, a simply amazing ride. Intamin introduced four. A mine train coaster, a family coaster, and two reverse freefall coasters. Thus begins Intamin's launching frenzy. Although the reverse freefall rides are cool, they never caught on, putting B&M ahead. But, Intamin is beginning to push the envelope....
1998
B&M opens Oblivion, Riddler's Revenge, and Great Bear. Great Bear is obviously loved by some and not by others, Riddler's Revenge marks the biggest ever standup roller coaster, and Oblivion marks the introduction of the Dive Machine, a great new idea which caught on and is now in both Busch Gardens parks as well as some random park in Japan. Intamin opens six coasters this year, doubling B&M's output. Two Bobsleds, a medium woodie, a Looping Coaster, the first Impulse and Volcano: The Blast Coaster make these up. Most noteworthy, of course, is the Impulse and V:TBC. The era of LSM's that work is upon us! Both companies have done a lot this year, with the introduction of two new ride types.
1999
B&M builds a whopping eight coasters! This is a huge year for the company. Top Gun: The Jet Coaster, Apollo's Chariot, Georgia Scorcher, Batman: The Ride, Raging Bull, Dueling Dragons, Medusa, and Incredible Hulk are all names we recognize. Medusa marks the introduction of the floorless coaster. Raging Bull and Apollo's Chariot are the company's first mega coasters. And, Dueling Dragons and Incredible Hulk are proof that the company still has what it takes to be Florida material. Intamin opens up only three coasters this year. One is a smaller spinning indoor coaster, one is Tornado at Parkque de Atracciones de Madrid, which showcases the company's invert inferiority to B&M, and the last is Ride of Steel at Darien Lake, which is very highly regarded even today. B&M easily beat Intamin this year.
2000
B&M has six new coasters in the 2000 season, four of which are floorless. Kraken, the world's most highly rated floorless, is built. Another Dive Machine and Katun are built. Katun today is fifth in Mitch's steel coaster poll. Intamin comes out with an Impulse, a small spiral coaster, and the legendary Superman: Ride of Steels and Millennium Force. Intamin is really strutting its stuff at this point, as SFNE's Ride of Steel is number one in the polls, and Millennium Force is sixth. Both companies have an amazing year. Intamin finally pulls alongside B&M with Millennium and S:ROS.
2001
B&M introduces just four coasters this year. A floorless, Wildfire, Talon, and Nitro. Nitro is still ranked extremely high, but Talon marks the start of what some call 'forceless B&Ms'. These are basically Inverts which many believe aren't thrilling enough. Although Talon is still ranked fairly well in Mitch's poll, it's all downhill from here. Intamin has seven new coasters to show off, but this year, they are all larger scale coasters. Two impulses, two woodies including Colossus –let me pause a moment – if you look here (http://rcdb.com/ig988.htm?picture=13) you will see two hills and then that funky turn. Something we see later on El Toro. Not so original for 2006, is it? They also open California Screamin’, an Invert, and finally, Expedition Ge-Force. Many think this is an improvement over S:ROS, many do not. But, the company is definitely using their new technology to create a stir. Intamin, for the first time, is ahead.
2002
B&M isn’t doing so badly. They debut the flying coaster, build Superman: Ultimate Flight, build three Batman clones (still popular, note that), build Silver Star, and make another floorless. The company is very popular, and comes up with another new design. Intamin is still very much alive as well. They open up two Impulses, a 10 inversion coaster (to which we mustn’t give much credit, as it has aged incredibly poorly), Goliath at Walibi World, a small twister, another looping coaster, and finally, Xcelerator. The hydraulic launch has finally been introduced. Both companies are doing very well right now.
2003
B&M just opens up three coasters this year: Nemesis Inferno, Scream!, and two S:UF’s. Intamin is on fire, however, with eight coasters introduced. Balder, Thunder Dolphin, Top Thrill Dragster, Atlantis Adventure, and more were opened this year. Intamin is a step ahead again.
2004
B&M opens only three, with Lightning (Batman clone), Silver Bullet, and Daemonen. Intamin only opens two coasters, Storm Runner and Half Pipe. Not such a big year for either company.
2005
B&M opens another Batman, Hydra, and SheiKra. SheiKra is extremely popular, and a similar ride is built just the year after. It also should be noted that both US Dive Machines are located in Busch Gardens parks, a very high quality chain who wants nothing but the best. Intamin opens Rita, Kanonen, Kingda Ka, Superman Escape, and a few lesser known rides. Both companies are, again, doing very well.
2006
B&M bounces back with two Goliaths, Patriot, Tatsu, Black mamba, and Crystal Wings (a flyer). Intamin stays strong with El Toro, Speed Monster, Stealth, and another few lesser known rides. It is apparent that almost all of B&M’s coasters are known by enthusiasts, but rides like Half Pipe and Flight of the Pheonix are not.
2007
B&M has a small year but opens up some phenomenal coasters. Griffon and Hollywood Dream: The Ride open up, as well as an invert called Python (one of the few B&M coasters I don’t know much about). Sort of unrelated, but, check that ride out: it has a pretty sick layout. It starts with a Raptor layout and improves majorly on it. Intamin has a huge year. Eight coasters, including Desert Race, Maverick, Inferno, and Furious Baco all open up. They also builds the Zac Spin, which caters to smaller parks.
I know the conversation has lost its way a bit and has become sort of personal, but I wanted to bring back the idea of pushing the envelope, because I believe that is one of the key factors in deciding which company is better. As we can see, Intamin has definitely pushed more in the past few years, and it is really paying off. They are building lots of rides every year, and show no sign of letting up. B&M hasn’t introduced a really big new thing in the past few years, but let us go back into the year of 1990. Since the company started, they introduced many new ride types that have proven to be very popular, and are still built today or have been built very recently (Batman clones, for example). Intamin’s technology was behind B&M’s with their standups and loopers…anyone can see that. After years and years of B&M advancing the coaster technology and creating new ride ideas, they sat on their new ideas and let them sell. They are still doing that now…with five new rides planned for 2008, the company is in no way in trouble. They advanced their rides early, and they have been reaping the benefits for quite some time.
Intamin, however, was behind B&M for most of its life, until a few years ago. One of Intamin’s strong selling points these days is its relatively unreliable hydraulic launch system. Intamin realized that they had failed to keep up with B&M with regular coasters like loopers, inverts, standups, sit downs, etc., and had to do something huge and different to compensate. It’s the only way they can stay alive as a major coaster company.
Another thing we see a lot is that B&M has not had one real dud of a ride. Of course, there are some people like more than others, and some people dislike, but there has never been a real bad one. Vortex may seem like crap now, but at its time it was really ahead of the current expectations. It has been said many times, but many of Intamin’s rides are duds. You’ve said it yourself, SnooSnoo. Which company is better, a company that consistently builds great rides, or a company who has the a few top rides and then sputters off the charts? (Did I use that word right?) Intamin’s best, according to polls, most definitely beat B&M’s best. But, that doesn’t prove which company is better. It just proves that Intamin has been going strong the past few years. B&M’s coasters also remain very good, look at where Nemesis still is.
Intamin is a much wider branching company. In its earlier years you saw more small coasters, but you still see them today, especially with the Ball Coaster I believe it’s called. Intamin caters to more kinds of parks, because they also make kiddie coasters, small spinning coasters, the ball coasters, smaller family coasters, etc. B&M makes only large scale amusement park attractions; there isn’t one that is a smaller family oriented ride. That’s why it is hard to compare the companies: they cater to different audiences a lot, spare the large scale thrill ride audience.
One must also notice that a larger percent of Intamin rides are gone compared to B&M rides. This partially is connected to the age of the company, but even when B&M started we see Intamins being taken down from that time period. This further proves that B&M’s technology and rides were far ahead of Intamin’s in the early to mid nineties at least.
I think I'll pull a Ryan and just throw in a quick tiny post here that makes everyone thing:
Could it be that because B&M's coasters are so freaking simple and predictable that they are so reliable? I mean, come on, I bet if Intamin had made all simple coasters with chain lifts and some loopys thrown here and a corkscrew there, that they'd be pretty good at it too.
Sorry, making a coaster with a 90 degree drop and adding some wide trains doesn't make it innovative in my book.
sirloin
11-04-2007, 03:20 PM
I'm aware of that, but is it not possible that Intamin could make a simple ride for once?
Yeah, B&M may not be as innovative these days, but that doesn't make their rides any worse than Intamins. Innovation doesn't always equal quality, with Intamin's megas still being their best product (something I imagine everyone agrees on). B&Ms are just good, quality rides, and that goes for every type of ride they offer.
However, let's look at Premier Rides. Most of those LIM machines run like a dream, so advanced technology doesn't always have to result in reliability problems.
Could it be that because B&M's coasters are so freaking simple and predictable that they are so reliable? I mean, come on, I bet if Intamin had made all simple coasters with chain lifts and some loopys thrown here and a corkscrew there, that they'd be pretty good at it too.
Take a look back at my post. Intamin has made "simple coasters with chain lifts and some loopys." Colossus is one example, and having ridden it, my opinion is that is it very rough, and not a good ride overall. Falling in 78th place in Mitch's poll backs up my point a bit. Obviously its not fact, but its as close as I can get. Intamin has made a few inverted coasters as well. Are these comparible to Batman: The Ride, Nemesis, Alpengeist, or Montu? Not at all, or their names would be found more in this thread. Intamin has to make crazy moves like the hydraulic launch to stay alive as a company, because they don't know how to make "simple coasters" very well.
sirloin
11-04-2007, 03:25 PM
Dan, I like your point. With the exception of their megas and wooden coasters (the former not really being that popular anymore, with B&M now dominating the mini-mega market these days), their basic coasters were never really that popular. Sure, Finland's Tornado did well, but that's the only one. Their sit-down loopers only got a few sales. All they really have anymore are rockets and woodies. B&M still runs a full product line and I know they'd be happy to build another standup if asked.
And I wish someone would ask, too. Chang and Mantis have left me itching for more.
Thrill Reconnoiter
11-04-2007, 06:00 PM
I mean, come on, I bet if Intamin had made all simple coasters with chain lifts
Did we totally throw SROS @ SFNE out the window, or did you forget it can't even have a functional chainlift?
jolash
11-04-2007, 08:10 PM
B&M not innovative eh?
They invented the inverted coaster, one of the most popular models through many manufacturers.
They mastered the flying coaster.
They created the modern-day Immelmann, Dive Loop, and Cobra roll (Recreated from the sidewinder, and boomerang).
They introduced the inverted loop (pretzel loop).
Dive Machine anyone?
Ok, ok. You're right. This isn't the most ground-breaking list of achievements. But as Sirloin said, what does Intamin have going for them anymore, besides rockets, woodies that aren't wooden, and these ridiculous prototypes that are hard to even call roller coasters?
Sorry, making a coaster with a 90 degree drop and adding some wide trains doesn't make it innovative in my book.
Your right, so I suppose that a 95* drop isn't innovative either, nor the boring two bench a car system that Intamin has been using since the beginning of time. Of course, I don't know where a 90 degree drop is coming from, as there are no B&M's with a drop that steep..I could be wrong of course.
At the time they were debuted, B&M's trains were very innovative in my book, and still are! B&M's trains track SO well as opposed to some Intamin's. I believe the articulated trains greatly improve the quality of ay ride experience, and as B&M is one of the few steel designers to use this technique it's quite innovative.
In the end, all of B&M's trains are innovative, and unlike Intamins have some variety. With the exception of Intamin's inverts just about all their trains are identical (I don't consider a different number of cars in a train to make two trains different). The same trains (or style of trains) are used on Storm Runner, Millennium Force, Maverick, Xcelerator, Top Thrill Dragster, etc.
sirloin
11-05-2007, 02:54 PM
SheiKra and Griffon both hit 90 degrees.
Also, Premier went 90 degrees before B&M did.
One thing to point out, and forgive me for kinda defending Intamin in this regard, but concept-wise, B&Ms are really only innovated in your position relative to the track (i.e. going under it, sitting on top of it with no floor below you, etc.). Many of their inversions were innovative, yes, but as far as a completely new, radical concept, no, B&M has not matched Intamin in this realm. Intamin is innovative in new ride systems. The launched invert, the hydraulic launch system, and so on and so forth. B&M did the flyer, which, given that its a radically improved train and system design when compared to its Vekoma brethren, is enough for me to consider it a radical new concept.
Let's be fair, though, all of B&M's trains are basically the same, with the exception of the dive machines, and they're only different because they're wider. The inverted train is a regular B&M train that hangs from the track rather than riding on top of it. Yeah, a couple of maneuvers introduced with the invert were new, but really, it's a looping coaster at heart.
I think a good way to put it would be that Intamin creates new concepts, and B&M improves existing concepts. B&M dominate the looper market, and I've never seen anyone do it better. They decided to branch out with dive machines, megas, and flyers, and they do all of them exceptionally as well, which is why I continue to tip my hat in their direction.
Bear in mind, though, Intamin megas are legendary.
Michael
11-05-2007, 04:13 PM
...One thing to point out, and forgive me for kinda defending Intamin in this regard...
Hey, what are you trying to say there punk? ;)
j/k
Thrill Reconnoiter
11-05-2007, 04:16 PM
But see Dr. Sirloin, that's where you provoke a huge flaw. The ideal and basic principal behind B&M creating new train styles is making EXPERIENCES for park guests...and if B&M can create these new and different ride experiences, more parks are going to go that route to give their visitors something unique. Taking a majority basis here, how many park goers really care if something has an extra loop here or there? All they're going to remember is "there was this one coaster where you were standing, the other one your feet were hanging with no track below you at all, and another you were flying!"
And really, if fixated inverts were so easy to design, why did it take over three decades since the first steel coaster to make one? They're not "a regular B&M train that hangs from the track," because B&M built the invert first...
jolash
11-05-2007, 04:33 PM
^He brings up a good point. Guests are going to remember a certain gimmick more than they will an extra loop you could have added or that extra turn at the end of the ride.
MaverickManJZ
11-05-2007, 05:17 PM
I'd go for B&M if I wanted inverions, and Intamin if I wanted airtime.
Michael
11-05-2007, 05:23 PM
^not gonna lie, even being a hardcore Intamin fan, B&M coasters blow away Intamin in terms of airtime over their product line. (With the exception of Maverick of course ;))
And some of the best air-time experiences around aren't from either company, coasters like Phoenix, Powder Keg, and others that offer some of the most radical g forces out there.
sirloin
11-05-2007, 06:15 PM
Ah, but Dr. Sickles, I'm not making a flaw at all. I don't care much what the guests think about a different train style, that doesn't make it anymore innovative than another. An inverted coaster train is no more complex than your regular Kumba train. There are structural modifications made to compensate for the fact that there's alot less "car" on an inverted coaster train than the above-the-track ones, but that's about the extent of it. And just because nobody felt like building an inverted coaster car for the longest time doesn't automatically make it innovative. I consider the term innovative to apply only to something radically different, which, as I just pointed out, inverted coaster cars really aren't. Heck, I think the standup trains are more innovative if you want to get technical about it.
Simply put, being below the track is no more complex than riding above it, or at least not by much. Their inversions (i.e. the dive loop and zero-g roll) were far more radical than the standard loops and corkscrews, at least from an engineering standpoint, than an inverted coaster car is from a standard, above-the-track sitdown B&M.
Ah, but Dr. Sickles, I'm not making a flaw at all. I don't care much what the guests think about a different train style, that doesn't make it anymore innovative than another. An inverted coaster train is no more complex than your regular Kumba train. There are structural modifications made to compensate for the fact that there's alot less "car" on an inverted coaster train than the above-the-track ones, but that's about the extent of it. And just because nobody felt like building an inverted coaster car for the longest time doesn't automatically make it innovative. I consider the term innovative to apply only to something radically different, which, as I just pointed out, inverted coaster cars really aren't. Heck, I think the standup trains are more innovative if you want to get technical about it.
I have to disagree with you there.
I do not understand how you can not see an inverted train as innovative. Now I'm no engineer, but that must have taken a lot of talent to make the technology work. PLus, while the inversions may be no different the experience most definitely is! I have been on three or four B&M inverts and a couple floorless coasters, and I have to say that riding one of the inverts did not, in the least bit remind me of a floorless. Inverted trains, flyer trains, floorless trains (to a degree) are all RADICALLY different from ANYTHING the amusement industry had seen before.
Honestly, if you don't think that is innovative, than neither are any of the Intamin launches. All they did was 'improve' an existing concept, note that I use improve in the lightest of forms. You have accused B&M of doing nothing but improving existing concepts, but Intamin has merely done the same thing.
Michael
11-05-2007, 07:02 PM
^from an engineer's (well, at least future one ;)) perspective, yes, these trains are very innovative. The forces applied on the trains are much much different, and all of the engineering and design that went into them, yes, they are highly innovative. But that's just my perspective... :rolleyes:
sirloin
11-05-2007, 07:07 PM
Jake, you're right, you aren't an engineer, so you wouldn't understand. All it takes to make an inverted coaster work is some slight structural work to make sure that the car doesn't rip itself apart as it goes through the track. It took barely any extra talent to make the inverted coaster work. You'd have seem them even earlier had the Arrow suspended coaster not required so much talent to make inversions work. THAT would've been innovative.
You see, the invert was born out of the removal of technology from a suspended coaster. No more swinging. Now I know the two styles, even without the swinging of a suspended, are radically different, but I'm just saying.
As for the forces applied on an invert, they aren't that different. They just act on different places in the car. It's basically the reverse of the above-the-track coaster. The stresses act a little differently on the car, that's all. Again, simple structural modifications are all that are required.
Your comparison to Intamin launchers is completely null. Those launch systems are some of the most advanced technologies available in the coaster world. It took a TON of talent to get things like those magnets or hydraulic systems working. Yeah, it's an improvement over existing technology, but it's far more complex. Not only that, but Intamin uses mostly LSMs, not LIMs, so before anyone accuses me of ignoring Premier's contributions, I'm not.
Funny. I'm arguing with someone from my own camp here! LOL! We'd better stop soon, lest SnooSnoo think I'm on his side! lol
Michael
11-05-2007, 07:14 PM
As for the forces applied on an invert, they aren't that different. They just act on different places in the car. It's basically the reverse of the above-the-track coaster. The stresses act a little differently on the car, that's all. Again, simple structural modifications are all that are required.
*buzzer sound* Wrong ;)
even though it takes the simple inverting of the track, elements like heartlining, banking, and the radius on turns were all effected by this simple flip. B&M took it to a new level with even twistier inversions, tighter turns, and elements never before seen. Their coasters were also the first truely smooth inverts, a testament to how innovative they really were. Sorry to be "know-it-all-ish" :p Just wanted to point out the incredible engineering and effort put into the design of the first B&M inverts :)
Reffering to the Intamin launchers (and again I could be wrong here), but that technology was not developed by Intamin. At least the hydraulic launch wasn't. All they did was transfer the technology that was already in use by aircraft carriers, and plug it into their coasters. Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure that transfer was not an easy task, but to say that the design of the invert took little to no skill is completely preposterous! Not only are B&M's invert trains COMPLETLY different than Arrows suspended trains, the addition of inversions to the coaster is most definitely a radical change!
Of course, this could be seen as an opinion, and I don't see it possible to change your opinion. It would take a lot more than my arguements to break through that ego. ;)
Aircraft Carriers don't used Hydraulics, they use steam.
The steam system is much more powerful than the hydraulic launch in terms of power and acceleration, but its a very bulky system, where as the hydraulic launch system is small and compact. Thus a bit easier to use as a launch system on a roller coaster.
Oh, and I'd just like to say I agree with this post:
SheiKra and Griffon both hit 90 degrees.
Also, Premier went 90 degrees before B&M did.
One thing to point out, and forgive me for kinda defending Intamin in this regard, but concept-wise, B&Ms are really only innovated in your position relative to the track (i.e. going under it, sitting on top of it with no floor below you, etc.). Many of their inversions were innovative, yes, but as far as a completely new, radical concept, no, B&M has not matched Intamin in this realm. Intamin is innovative in new ride systems. The launched invert, the hydraulic launch system, and so on and so forth. B&M did the flyer, which, given that its a radically improved train and system design when compared to its Vekoma brethren, is enough for me to consider it a radical new concept.
Let's be fair, though, all of B&M's trains are basically the same, with the exception of the dive machines, and they're only different because they're wider. The inverted train is a regular B&M train that hangs from the track rather than riding on top of it. Yeah, a couple of maneuvers introduced with the invert were new, but really, it's a looping coaster at heart.
I think a good way to put it would be that Intamin creates new concepts, and B&M improves existing concepts. B&M dominate the looper market, and I've never seen anyone do it better. They decided to branch out with dive machines, megas, and flyers, and they do all of them exceptionally as well, which is why I continue to tip my hat in their direction.
Bear in mind, though, Intamin megas are legendary.
B&M is innovative in its own way, but Intamin really shines when it comes to delivering a new concept to the industry.
Edit:
Not only are B&M's invert trains COMPLETLY different than Arrows suspended trains, the addition of inversions to the coaster is most definitely a radical change!
Of course, this could be seen as an opinion, and I don't see it possible to change your opinion. It would take a lot more than my arguements to break through that ego. ;)Sure, the trains are completely different, but the idea was already there. And if you call actually heart-lining a majority of the already used elements, then I guess you call them a "radical change".
I can't even give B&M credit for the Stand Up... Togo made it's first as early as 1982! Flyers were around by Vekoma for a few years before B&M decided to steal that idea and improve it. The most innovative they've been is with "lolomg lets remove the floor and call it a floorless coaster" and the Dive Machine... which all that did was add a few more seats to the rows.
sirloin
11-05-2007, 08:08 PM
Intamin-Mike, I'm gonna buzz you wrong. Why? I'm a senior in engineering. You aren't. I know what I'm talking about. Again, an invert is an above-the-track coaster in reverse. The track may be of a tighter radius, but the heartline is still the same if you're above or below the track. B&M could easily make sharper turns on their coasters that ride on top of the track.
Seriously, it's the structure of the car that set the two apart and the way you need to bend the track to heartline it. Overall, they're the same thing. Bending the track in a slightly different manner doesn't count as wild engineering innovation.
Intamin-Mike, I'm gonna buzz you wrong. Why? I'm a senior in engineering. You aren't. I know what I'm talking about. Again, an invert is an above-the-track coaster in reverse. The track may be of a tighter radius, but the heartline is still the same if you're above or below the track. B&M could easily make sharper turns on their coasters that ride on top of the track.I'd like to buzz....
Obviously, the track looks much tighter, but you are right, it doesn't effect the motions of the train. However, I can't see how you say the conversion isn't a large engineering feat.
1) It's easy enough to make supports that push up on a piece of track, but I imagine it is harder to figure out support structures that suspend the track...especially when the coaster is tugging down on them with its weight times up to four times the force of gravity.
2) The trains aren't simply taken from above the track and placed below. B&M blew everything else out of the water with the introduction of those trains, and they haven't really changed to this day.
Arrow came out with their suspended coaster, but couldn't put it through inversions due to its entire setup. B&M thought to make fixed cars 'hang' beneath the track, and sometimes it takes a lot to come up with just an idea like that. Sure, we all say we would have thought of it, but put yourself in a time when they didn't exist.
Plus, remember that Inverts can't go through some of the same elements sit-downs can. Airtime hills prove hard for them because the trains would theoretically hit each other below the track..the opposite of a quick pullout on a standup.
sirloin
11-05-2007, 08:53 PM
Another comrade turns on me! This will not stand...
1) Tensile stress on many of the supports instead of compressive stress. The tensile strength of a material is generally much lower. Solution? Bigger, thicker supports. Hardly innovative. Just basic structural engineering principles.
2) I know they aren't identical. Again, you have to alter the structure of the train to compensate for the fact that the stresses act in different places and directions. Again, simple structural engineering.
3) The only reason Arrow didn't make their suspendeds do inversions was because they wanted to keep the swinging motion. Thinking about taking away technology (the swinging) is alot more intuitive than thinking about adding a swinging motion. And heck, both suspendeds and inverts hang below the track. All the B&Ms do differently is hug it, and they don't swing. Very simple solution.
Quite frankly, the technology was always there. Arrow just didn't want to take away the swinging motion.
4) Dueling dragons has an airtime hill, and you would be amazed how sharp of a peak it would take to make the cars contact each other, or to make you contact the car in front of you. You don't see the same problem on B&M sit-downs, and those cars are just as close together.
I stand proven, as those were more there for you to explain and not as an argument, except for...
Quite frankly, the technology was always there. Arrow just didn't want to take away the swinging motion.
I don't know if this is really true. Obviously we can't know for sure, though.
sirloin
11-05-2007, 09:06 PM
Well, come on Dan, nobody's dumb enough to not figure out to take the swinging out. I just think Arrow wanted to have both, which would've been pretty cool. That's what the problem was. I'll be fair, though. With the cars that far away from the track, I can still see some wicked whip being placed on riders, and the moments on the train would've been nuts. Hugging the track is the way to go.
Well, to make this relevant, the point is that they did it first, they did it well, and they continue to do it well. Better than Intamin, which I doubt anyone can argue with.
apsterling
11-05-2007, 11:42 PM
I'm'a drop myself right into this convo.
First point, to whoever brought up 90º. In the modern coaster age, it was Schwarzkopf, with the first loop on Revolution. Since loops go full circle, Schwarzkopf made the first 90º drop.
I prefer a solid B&M to a solid Intamin, as I prefer the smooth flow of a beemer to the jagged, yet still smooth, flow on the Intamin. There's a certain thing to Kraken, Alpy, and Tatsu about flying, swooping, and floating over the terrain and scenery so smoothly yet fast, that it FEELS like you're flying, or riding a sea creature.
Now, why I like California Screamin' more than any other Intamin. (I see it as the best- better than the iconic rides.)
a) The launch is smooth. Compared to the Accelerator 5 miles away, it's hella smooth. (Granted, Xcelerator was lower in my books because I couldn't see either, they were being anti glasses)
b) The ride has style. What it lacks in incredible exhilaration, it makes up for in incredible air, smooth curves, and all around feeling of speed. (Despite going only ~40MPH)
c) The soundtrack. Being a musician myself (Percussion - Mallets, Marching Perc., and Drumset, as well as piano, and composing) I enjoy that Disney will spend time to get real musicians into the development, modify the trains for music (Why they couldn't have gotten Intamin's newer trains beats me) to make the ride feel faster. And it does. The music, surroundings and typically good vibe on the train (you're at Disney) makes the ride that much better.
Pretty much, I prefer specific Intamins (Cali' Screamin', S:ROS@DL, MF) to B&M's, but overall an incredible B&M (Kraken, Alpy, Tatsu, Riddler) will make my day better.
Don't get me started on the woodie argument, I'm a Hardcore woodie fan (Mean Streak FTW, SRSLY), but as straight as a ruler (Not bent, splintered, or otherwise mutilated).
So, to sum it up-
Witty remark about 90º
I prefer a solid Beemer for smoothness
I prefer a well themed/placed/modified Intamin for the theming/placement/modification, particularly music,
I <3 Mean Streak.
Thrill Reconnoiter
11-06-2007, 01:01 AM
Guests are going to remember a certain gimmick more than they will an extra loop
Gimmick? I don't see any gimmick about the fact 3.5G's on an invert feels like 4+G's on a sitdown because your legs loose blood circulation.
I don't care much what the guests think about a different train style, that doesn't make it anymore innovative than another.
Then I hope you're not in charge of running a park anytime soon. I, and about most everyone else, like having options.
Their inversions (i.e. the dive loop and zero-g roll) were far more radical than the standard loops and corkscrews, at least from an engineering standpoint, than an inverted coaster car is from a standard, above-the-track sitdown B&M.
I believe Stengel designed the elements, B&M only got the heartline to work-which isn't a huge feat compared to inverts, as you'd later go on in this thread to proclaim (and contradict yourself): "...way you need to bend the track to heartline it. Bending the track in a slightly different manner doesn't count as wild engineering innovation."
And just because nobody felt like building an inverted coaster car for the longest time doesn't automatically make it innovative.
I can't imagine everyone thought inverts were such a lame design [/sarcasm] that no one improved upon it...cause it's only one of, if not the, single-handily most recognizable/popular rollercoaster design across the world.
You see, the invert was born out of the removal of technology from a suspended coaster. No more swinging.
The only similarity is the principal of a train car below the track. The whole chassis and wheel bogie design is COMPLETELY different. I don't recall sitting on any Arrow where my feet were hanging, which alone is a huge break-through. Don't think because it's below the track it's the same-that's GP talk. It's like trying to say a suspension bridge and arch bridge are the same because they crossover something.
Your comparison to Intamin launchers is completely null. Those launch systems are some of the most advanced technologies available in the coaster world.
If they were that good, other people would use them...but they don't. All it is, is a cable/pulley system-much like that principal copied from Schwarzkopf-and the use of a hydromechanical CVT (which has been around for a couple decades). Premier uses LIM's which suit their applications better. And S&S uses air power (way ahead of Intamin), which is much more powerful and established.
It took a TON of talent to get things like those magnets or hydraulic systems working.
Working? We all have seen how good KK/TTD's launches work.
but Intamin really shines when it comes to delivering a new concept to the industry
Elaborate please? I haven't seen didly-squat of a CONCEPT out of Intamin, only copying the launch idea and fixated invert idea. I'll give you Fried Bacon-only because they weren't smart enough how figure out how to put riders in the middle of the trains, above the track, like Dive Machines.
1) Tensile stress on many of the supports instead of compressive stress. The tensile strength of a material is generally much lower. Solution? Bigger, thicker supports. Hardly innovative. Just basic structural engineering principles.
I think you underestimate something called cost-effectiveness. Bigger, thicker supports require more raw material and higher dollar figures. The fact B&M could produce a reliable, innovative, and affordable product is a feat in itself. Usually with this type of engineering, you get to pick only two of three things: affordable, functional, reliable. B&M did all three.
Quite frankly, the technology was always there. Arrow just didn't want to take away the swinging motion.
Like I said above, I think you underestimate engineering with principal concept. If it was that simple (making an invert with inversions), they would've done it.
First point, to whoever brought up 90º. In the modern coaster age, it was Schwarzkopf, with the first loop on Revolution. Since loops go full circle, Schwarzkopf made the first 90º drop.
Modern age? That's no excuse to cancel a concept that was derived 150 years ago. And let's be reasonable, a positive force acting on a human at a 90-degree angle is different than no force of freefall.
sirloin
11-06-2007, 11:38 AM
Going my usual route of listing rather than hardcore quoting:
1) Gimmick is just a generic term for a (seemingly) significant difference in a style of ride. It doesn't have to have the negative connotations associated with it. Simply put, what he was saying was that guests will remember going under the track rather than over alot more than they'd remember an extra loop
2) Since when did I say that they're all completely identical? I never did. I said engineering-wise, they're very similar. As a guest, though, yeah, that lack of car on an invert is going to create a noticeable difference in the eyes of the guest. Heck, every train style is different in terms of the experience. However, as far as the technology goes, it's all pretty much the same (minus the flyers). As I've said 1000 times already, it's only slight structural differences. Hardly innovative. Just cool and different.
I think you could easily stick 4 (or more) different B&Ms in a park and not see redundancy. I think SFGAm still maintains a great deal of variety in their B&Ms, even with 4 of them running.
3) I'm not at all contradicting myself. Just because something is slightly different doesn't mean it's a completely different engineering process. Heartlining is heartlining. You're just reversing a direction. Quite simple, really.
The track still rolls around you. It just starts inverted on an invert and starts in a normal orientation on a sit-down.
Sorry, but that's a bogus example of self-contradiction.
4) I was referring to building an invert prior to B&Ms introduction of it. Not after. An invert is very basic technology-wise. As I've said before, it's likely that the only reason you didn't really see them before B&M was because Arrow didn't want to sacrifice the swinging on their trains. An invert is, at heart, a very basic suspended design, minus the swinging technology.
5) You need to get over this problem with specifics you seem to be having. What is a suspended swinging coaster? Any coaster that rides under the track and swings. I never said a B&M was an Arrow suspended without the swinging. I said it was a suspended coaster without the swinging. Suspended is a generic term that refers to absolute most basic concept of a train under the track.
A suspension bridge and an arch bridge are two radically different types of bridges. An Arrow suspended train is just an inverted train that swings.
Also, adding in inversions is hardly innovative. The idea and know-how was always there to take a loop and make it an outside one instead of an inside one. They just needed someone willing to take the swinging out to make it work.
Not GP talk, my friend. Engineering talk. An inverted train is far more basic than a suspended one. Simple as that.
6) Every company with launches uses slightly different systems. I'll be fair: Intamin isn't the only one who uses LSMs. Vekoma does too on the Rock 'n Roller Coaster.
The hydraulic launch is a far more advanced version of somewhat basic technology. It's a drastic improvement over any similar technology. All it needs are a few touch-ups, and it blows the snot out of almost anything.
A significant upgrade of existing technology counts as innovation.
Oh, and before any of you call that statement my biggest blunder to date, a B&M invert is only a slight refinement of suspended technology. Not only that, but much of it's technology came from the B&M standup, 2 years it's senior. Oh, and a B&M standup train is far more innovative than an inverted train.
Not only that, but I'd almost be willing to say an Arrow suspended train is a refined B&M inverted train, even if it did come out first. It swings. Inverts don't. Basic technology is not innovation, my friends, and an invert is basic technology.
7) I question your comment on the power of air power. Twenty seats on some Intamin rockets to 8 on the air-powered ones. Let's see S&S build as big of a train as Intamin, and then we'll talk. I acknowledge that the S&S trains are like panzers compared to Intamin trains, but I'd need a better comparison before I admit that.
Quite possibly more efficient, though, as air is a readily available resource.
I wouldn't necessarily say it's way ahead of Intamin, though. The technology for S&S air-powered rides is quite simple, and it doesn't need to be complex. Magnetic launch power and hydraulic launch power are both more complex, and I'm confident that if it was really all that effective, S&S wouldn't be the only ones using it.
Oh, and Hypersonic has plenty of downtime just like the Intamins. Ditto some of their flats as well.
8) If TTD only ever got one launch out, it still worked. It works, chief. Not as often as it should, but it works, or there wouldn't be so many rockets popping up. And it seems that Intamin is starting to get good at it, too.
Reliability doesn't mean the technology sucks, good sir. It just means it needs refinement.
That's another point for B&M and their testament to quality by not releasing faulty technology, but it does result in a sacrifice to innovation.
9) Um...what? Reverse FreeFall (a dud, to be sure), actually launching an invert, the fancy cable lift system (For some reason, I suspect there were rides built earlier that used a cable lift, but Intamin made a really good, successful one), etc., etc. A launched invert is a noticeable innovation when compared to a basic one. Hence, it wins an innovation award. Completely different, more advanced technology.
And please explain what you mean by middle of the train, above the track. All I can infer from that is heartlining, which Intamin also does exceptionally well.
10) B&M does functional and reliable. Hardly affordable. B&Ms are as expensive as they come. That's one area I do give to Intamin: they can be very cost-effective with their more basic-technology rides. Those megas are much cheaper than B&M ones are. No way you could built a B&M with the same layout as SROS at SFNE and get a better price. The first two, as I said, are totally accurate, and Intamin lacks a little in both. However, when it comes to affordable (assuming the ride works the first time and doesn't require lots of $$$ for upkeep, which is variable from ride to ride and isn't something you can tell for sure, and is therefore null for the purposes of this argument), Intamin takes the cake.
You know what? I'm gonna play nice. Let's factor in upkeep, and say that all Intamins need 10x the amount of money for upkeep as B&Ms. B&M still isn't overly affordable. Morgan hypers are significantly cheaper, and Steel Force was a pimpin' ride, and they're even more basic than B&Ms.
If you can afford the up-front investment for a B&M, you won't be disappointed, but it's extremely expensive to get one.
11) Yeah, it's still that simple. Arrow didn't want to sacrifice their swinging trains. Not only that, but those cars are way too far out from the track. Arrow would've needed new trains. Likely wouldn't have cost much since, as I've said a million times before, it's basic technology. There aren't GPS systems hidden in invert trains or something. Arrow just didn't want to lose the swinging. For whatever reason, doing flips from under the track just wasn't that appealing to Arrow to sacrifice the swinging.
The only thing even remotely innovative about an invert train is the lack of a floor. That was clever on B&Ms part. I'll be nice and give them a half of an innovation point for that, but that's reall about it. Beyond that, removal of the torsion bar was about the most technologically advanced thing they ever did with an invert.
You know, you all are making it look like I don't like B&M! Still the best in my book. I'm just saying that it's basic technology, my friends.
I do find it funny that the only one anybody is defending is the invert. Shoot, I willingly threw out there that the flyer was innovative, even if they didn't start on it until Stealth debuted at PGA (which I'm not convinced is the truth). I can't say this factually, but I'm almost willing to suggest that the B&M flyer is far more basic than the Vekoma (which it practically has to be). However, it's such a refinement that it wins for innovation. Inverts aren't necessarily refinements. They're just different. They choose inversions over swinging.
Thrill Reconnoiter
11-06-2007, 02:09 PM
1) Gimmick is just a generic term for a (seemingly) significant difference in a style of ride. It doesn't have to have the negative connotations associated with it.
A device employed to cheat, deceive, or trick,...Nothing negative about that at all. http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/rolleyes.gif
I said engineering wise, they're very similar.
Which I have said above, is not true at all. If you honestly believe engineering wise they are similar, then your concept on Intamin launches being so "innovative" is totally, 100% void-since it just improves upon the launch concept/principal.
And your senior engineering student mumbo-jumbo is precisely that, mumbo-jumbo. You should already know in the first place the NSPE ethics, the ones that say you don't make assumptions and statements about another engineers work without proper knowledge and infield qualifications.
I think you could easily stick 4 (or more) different B&Ms in a park and not see redundancy. I think SFGAm still maintains a great deal of variety in their B&Ms, even with 4 of them running.
Exactly what I've been saying about variety this whole time. http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/embeer.gif
3) I'm not at all contradicting myself. Just because something is slightly different doesn't mean it's a completely different engineering process. Heartlining is heartlining. You're just reversing a direction. Quite simple, really.
The track still rolls around you. It just starts inverted on an invert and starts in a normal orientation on a sit-down.
Sorry, but that's a bogus example of self-contradiction.
I don't see anywhere in that statement did you even make an attempt at reasoning your contradiction. We can swerve and dodge the facts all you want, but very simple, you said something to prove a point that you would later go on to say the opposite.
An invert is very basic technology-wise. As I've said before, it's likely that the only reason you didn't really see them before B&M was because Arrow didn't want to sacrifice the swinging on their trains. An invert is, at heart, a very basic suspended design, minus the swinging technology.
See above - [You sure do like to reiterate the same stuff by just rewording it]
5) You need to get over this problem with specifics you seem to be having. What is a suspended swinging coaster? Any coaster that rides under the track and swings. I never said a B&M was an Arrow suspended without the swinging. I said it was a suspended coaster without the swinging. Suspended is a generic term that refers to absolute most basic concept of a train under the track.
I don't see what this attempts to prove, but we can throw it in there anyway if you'd like. http://www.vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/screwy.gif Regardless of a name, your defense remains the same.
A suspension bridge and an arch bridge are two radically different types of bridges. An Arrow suspended train is just an inverted train that swings.
...and your over-glorified Intamin launches are a modified Schwartzkopf shuttle loop. You look at one side of this "concept theory." http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/redface.gif
Also, adding in inversions is hardly innovative. The idea and know-how was always there to take a loop and make it an outside one instead of an inside one. They just needed someone willing to take the swinging out to make it work.
Once again with the reiteration. Really, I had completely forgotten B&M Inverts are the worst rated design of roller coasters out there. Thanks for reminding me. It's no wonder why no one else cared enough to do it before B&M! http://www.vortexmediagroup.com/images/banghead.gif
The hydraulic launch is a far more advanced version of somewhat basic technology. It's a drastic improvement over any similar technology. All it needs are a few touch-ups, and it blows the snot out of almost anything.
When's this "touch-up" coming? I can't remember if Intamin said 2034 or 2033. http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/frown.gif
A significant upgrade of existing technology counts as innovation.
Oh, and before any of you call that statement my biggest blunder to date, a B&M invert is only a slight refinement of suspended technology. Not only that, but much of it's technology came from the B&M stand-up, 2 years it's senior. Oh, and a B&M stand-up train is far more innovative than an inverted train.
You're so smart, I can't believe you don't design roller coasters! You call a shoty attempt at a new launch system "innovative", but a completely new ride experience (fixated seats, floorless car, inversions-that's three new elements over your launch of no new element) isn't? I might as well shoot myself in the face. http://vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/mad.gif
7) I question your comment on the power of air power. Twenty seats on some Intamin rockets to 8 on the air-powered ones. Let's see S&S build as big of a train as Intamin, and then we'll talk.
Is that some kind of excuse, or is fastest accelerating in the world not good enough for you? http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthdown.gif
Reliability doesn't mean the technology sucks, good sir. It just means it needs refinement.
Is this an excuse to produce a bunch of lemon products? Are you saying producing a jet powered car is totally fine because it's fast, and it overrides the negative of horrible gas mileage, noise, maintenance?
That's another point for B&M and their testament to quality by not releasing faulty technology, but it does result in a sacrifice to innovation.
Like I told Matt, please elaborate on this "innovation." Do you guys actually got something else aside from this omgzitsther0x0rs launch concept? Please?
And please explain what you mean by middle of the train, above the track. All I can infer from that is heartlining, which Intamin also does exceptionally well.
I was merely stating that Furius Baco is just based on the principal of B&M Dive Machine trains (without center seats), or even better, fixated Arrow 4D trains.
10) B&M does functional and reliable. Hardly affordable. B&Ms are as expensive as they come. That's one area I do give to Intamin: they can be very cost-effective with their more basic-technology rides. Those megas are much cheaper than B&M ones are. No way you could built a B&M with the same layout as SROS at SFNE and get a better price. The first two, as I said, are totally accurate, and Intamin lacks a little in both. However, when it comes to affordable (assuming the ride works the first time and doesn't require lots of $$$ for upkeep, which is variable from ride to ride and isn't something you can tell for sure, and is therefore null for the purposes of this argument), Intamin takes the cake.
Fahrenheit 12 Mill
Furius Baco 21 Mill
Maverick 21 Mill
---
Griffon 15 Mill
Black Mamba 16 Mill (ride only, not theming)
Patriot 14 Mill
Tatsu 21 Mill
(And if Intamin produced another Mega today it'd be just as much as B&M Megas)
Morgan hypers are significantly cheaper, and Steel Force was a pimpin' ride, and they're even more basic than B&Ms.
Are we pretending inflation doesn't happen or what?
11) Yeah, it's still that simple. Arrow didn't want to sacrifice their swinging trains. Not only that, but those cars are way too far out from the track. Arrow would've needed new trains. Likely wouldn't have cost much since, as I've said a million times before, it's basic technology. There aren't GPS systems hidden in invert trains or something. Arrow just didn't want to lose the swinging. For whatever reason, doing flips from under the track just wasn't that appealing to Arrow to sacrifice the swinging.
That's definitely it. People would've loved to see some more high quality swinging (like the very same they can do on a playground) over an inverting coaster. Guests just LOVE Iron Dragon over Raptor and Alpenegeist over BigBadWolf. http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/sly.gif
Shoot, I willingly threw out there that the flyer was innovative, even if they didn't start on it until Stealth debuted at PGA (which I'm not convinced is the truth). I can't say this factually, but I'm almost willing to suggest that the B&M flyer is far more basic than the Vekoma (which it practically has to be). However, it's such a refinement that it wins for innovation. Inverts aren't necessarily refinements. They're just different. They choose inversions over swinging.
Hang on, do I have this down pact?
Intamin Launch - Innovative
B&M Invert - Different
Because before you said, "Intamin creates new concepts..." And I haven't seen any new concepts listed yet. A hydraulic launch isn't a concept, it's a "refinement" as you so eloquently put it.
------------
I'm not trying to sound like I know the answers, I'm trying to present logic into this. It's your right to believe your correct and argue your 'points' all you want. I'm just giving those other people that read this the ability to decide for themselves, and not listen to the randomness sirloin throws out there.
Anywho, I'm about done because you seem to be having conceptual issues where the launch principal is radically different than train principals, and I can't think how to make it more clear. If you do feel the need to respond, please quote me and don't list, because it looks like your dodging questions.
Michael
11-06-2007, 03:39 PM
I prefer a solid B&M to a solid Intamin
Uhm... Biased? :rolleyes:
Don't get me started on the woodie argument, I'm a Hardcore woodie fan (Mean Streak FTW, SRSLY)
Lol, Meanstreak is so far from "hardcore" it's not even funny...
sirloin
11-06-2007, 04:31 PM
A device employed to cheat, deceive, or trick,...
Nothing negative about that at all. http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/rolleyes.gif 1. D'oh! Sickles 1, sirloin 0.
Which I have said above, is not true at all. If you honestly believe engineering wise they are similar, then your concept on Intamin launches being so "innovative" is totally, 100% void-since it just improves upon the launch concept/principal.
And your senior engineering student mumbo-jumbo is precisely that, mumbo-jumbo. You should already know in the first place the NSPE ethics, the ones that say you don't make assumptions and statements about another engineers work without proper knowledge and infield qualifications.
2. I think you may be misunderstanding me. What I'm saying is that engineering-wise, the B&Ms are similar. Commonality is one of their strengths. I think you may have misunderstood and thought I was saying that inverts are similar engineering-wise to the Arrow suspended, which isn't true. Mind you, that's not implying that the invert is more advanced, because I still say it's basic technology, but the invert and suspended are different engineering-wise (as is blatently obvious).
I hope you simply misunderstood, because if you're trying to tell me that the B&Ms are very different from each other as far as the basic engineering is concerned, then you must be on something.
Oh, and you seem to have forgotten the cardinal rule of RCPro: don’t mess with sirloin, lest ye receiveth a severe thrashing which ye shalt reget for all time.
All humor aside, I rather liked your comments about the NSPE ethics. You need to not assume I’m putting out a bunch of mumbo-jumbo and maybe consider I do know what I’m talking about. Would you like to see a project I’ve done? I’m sure I still have a few around here. Perhaps I could also fax you a copy of the exam I just landed a pretty A on (one of several). Or maybe the one I got a 100 on. Want my student ID number to prove I’m not bluffing? I’m not lying to you.
Exactly what I've been saying about variety this whole time. http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/embeer.gif3. I'm sorry if I made it sound like I thought that all B&Ms even felt the same, regardless of type. You'd be hard-pressed to convince me Nitro and Batman-The Ride feel the same. Variety in ride-style is definitely present.
I don't see anywhere in that statement did you even make an attempt at reasoning your contradiction. We can swerve and dodge the facts all you want, but very simple, you said something to prove a point that you would later go on to say the opposite.4. Until you can tell me exactly how I'm contradicting myself, I don't know how to help you. I'm gonna do my best to try and break this down for you, though.
You bend the track one way on an invert and the opposite direction on a standup. It's still bending the track. They're also 4-across. Structural differences exist, yes. Anybody can tell that. They have to be different. That difference doesn't imply an advancement. It's basic structural engineering. I think my statement "Overall, they're the same thing" is what's throwing you off.
Or maybe you think I'm contradicting myself by saying one minute that a heartline is advanced and the next minute saying it isn't. Now this is a stretch, because I can't even begin to try and figure out how you'd assume that's what I'm getting at, but no, a heartline isn't advanced. And even if it was, it wasn't the invert that introduced it.
Now unless you came up with some better concoction of what my self-contradiction and can explain it better than you tried to the first time, and unless you want to specifically tell me what you're coming up with, I don't know how to help you. I'm not dodging any facts. I'm waiting for you to present them.
See above - [You sure do like to reiterate the same stuff by just rewording it]5. Um...what? I'm not understanding what you're getting at. I have several comments posted above, so I'm going to assume you're referring to me contradicting myself again.
An invert is a basic swinging suspended coaster that doesn't swing. Not an ARROW swinging suspended coaster that doesn't swing, which is where I think you're having a problem following me, but it's a suspended coaster that doesn't swing.
If it would help you understand me, let's say B&M built a swinging suspended coaster. It would be more advanced than the invert, which doesn't swing. Takes more advanced technology to make a ride swing than it does to make it go upside-down.
I don't see what this attempts to prove, but we can throw it in there anyway if you'd like. http://www.vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/screwy.gif Regardless of a name, your defense remains the same.6. I threw that in there to try and get the mindset you seemed to be having out of your head and make you look at the bigger picture. Now I just explained what I meant above this paragraph in point 5, so I'm not going to reiterate.
...and your over-glorified Intamin launches are a modified Schwartzkopf shuttle loop. You look at one side of this "concept theory." http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/redface.gif7. A wildly advanced version of a Schwartzkopf, yes. Far more capable and power. A huge advancement in technology. I'm looking at both sides. Inverts are not more advanced suspendeds, rather, they're different suspendeds. Different and more advanced are two different things.
I know better than to be one-sided. But then, had I been totally one-sided, I wouldn't have made the apparent mistake of complimenting Intamin in the first place, which would've saved us this whole argument.
Once again with the reiteration. Really, I had completely forgotten B&M Inverts are the worst rated design of roller coasters out there. Thanks for reminding me. It's no wonder why no one else cared enough to do it before B&M! http://www.vortexmediagroup.com/images/banghead.gif]8. I never said they were the worst-rated. However, for all Arrow knew, people wanted the swinging more than they wanted the flips, and that's why they didn't make it. Heck, maybe they thought people would like them, but that they'd like the suspendeds more, and didn't want to use up development resources on a ride they may not have been convinced would be successful. Your argument is an easy one to make 15 years after the fact.
Not only that, but suspendeds appeal to a wider range of riders. You can get your hardcore thrillseekers as well as more members of the family. I can honestly tell you that were I the one deciding what style to offer, and only being able to choose one, I'd have probably picked the one that appealed to more people as well. Granted, Arrow could've offered it. Why they didn't, I don't know, but then, they started losing their touch coming out of the 80s and weren't exactly making the best decisions. I refer you to X for that one.
Again, I don't know why Arrow didn't offer it. The technology was there, and you won't convince me it wasn't.
[quote=Ryan Sickles]When's this "touch-up" coming? I can't remember if Intamin said 2034 or 2033. http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/frown.gif9. 2038. It was in a press release 6 days ago.
Seriously, they are improving, and they're alot better now than they were, at least from what I've heard (and seen with Storm Runner). I'm not saying I'm OK with them not getting it right the first time, and that sort of problem is why I constantly praise B&M as being the best. I'm just saying that to say they are complete and utter failures is to ignore the numerous additions they've received since 2002.
You're so smart, I can't believe you don't design roller coasters! You call a shoty attempt at a new launch system "innovative", but a completely new ride experience (fixated seats, floorless car, inversions-that's three new elements over your launch of no new element) isn't? I might as well shoot myself in the face. http://vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/mad.gif
10. I don't know why I don't design them either, to be honest. ;)
You get floorless. Not the other two. A fixated car was invented when the first two digits of the year were a one and an eight, and the first successful inversions came out in 1975 (or thereabouts). Combining basic existing technology, once again, does not make a ride innovative or advanced.
A massively souped-up version (so much so that it may as well be new) of an ancient launch system that now offers up face-peeling acceleration is innovation.
Is that some kind of excuse, or is fastest accelerating in the world not good enough for you? http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthdown.gif11. Not an excuse at all, my friend. Power and acceleration are two different things. Acceleration is the change in velocity over time, and power is the change in work (mass x distance x acceleration) over time. So you see? Unless there's more mass in an S&S train then there is in an Intamin train, or enough of an increase in acceleration to compensate for the lighter weight(we'll use Kingda Ka, just to make it even harder for you, as I'm pretty sure KK has the fastest acceleration of any rocket under standard operating conditions ;)), then no, air-powered launches are not more powerful.
Having the fastest acceleration out there is plenty good enough for me, and I'll gladly take a peel-the-paint-off-your-face 0-80 in 1.8 seconds launch anyday. Doesn't mean it's more powerful, though.
Is this an excuse to produce a bunch of lemon products? Are you saying producing a jet powered car is totally fine because it's fast, and it overrides the negative of horrible gas mileage, noise, maintenance?12. Not saying that at all. There's never an excuse to make lemon products, and if I had my way, the rocket wouldn't have come out until I got it right. Still fascinating, good technology. Just not as good as it could be. But come 2038, man, I'll be pumped!
Like I told Matt, please elaborate on this "innovation." Do you guys actually got something else aside from this omgzitsther0x0rs launch concept? Please?
13. Plug 'n Play woodies.
I was merely stating that Furius Baco is just based on the principal of B&M Dive Machine trains (without center seats), or even better, fixated Arrow 4D trains.14. They didn't want to disappoint the people who got stuck riding over the track? I dunno! I said I liked B&M more, so don't come looking for me to explain why Intamin made a bad idea. What the heck do I care?
Ah, but wait! Furious Baco has more cars than a dive machine. If the off-to-the-side sensation is what they're hoping draws people to the ride, why built an 80-person train?
Dangit Ryan, you're forcing me to defend a concept that doesn't overly appeal to me! Stop!
Fahrenheit 12 Mill
Furius Baco 21 Mill
Maverick 21 Mill
---
Griffon 15 Mill
Black Mamba 16 Mill (ride only, not theming)
Patriot 14 Mill
Tatsu 21 Mill
(And if Intamin produced another Mega today it'd be just as much as B&M Megas)15. Maverick is $21,000,000 thanks to some elaborate theming. Tatsu doesn't have any. It's just straight-up expensive.
And $16,000,000 for the ride alone for Black Mamba? Holy smokes! That's expensive! And look at Fahrenheit. Much cheaper, and of similar magnitude (well, maybe Fahrenheit is a little bigger ;)).
Are we pretending inflation doesn't happen or what?16. How's this for inflation?
Raptor - $11,500,000 1994 dollars
Steel Force - $10,000,000 1996 dollars.
Inflate that, Sickles.
That's definitely it. People would've loved to see some more high quality swinging (like the very same they can do on a playground) over an inverting coaster. Guests just LOVE Iron Dragon over Raptor and Alpenegeist over BigBadWolf. http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/sly.gif17. If it were more appealing to Arrow, they'd have done it. They haven't always been the best at forecasting trends, though. You know that as well as I do. I said it was the decision Arrow made, Ryan. I didn't say it was a good one.
Hang on, do I have this down pact?
Intamin Launch - Innovative
B&M Invert - Different
Because before you said, "Intamin creates new concepts..." And I haven't seen any new concepts listed yet. A hydraulic launch isn't a concept, it's a "refinement" as you so eloquently put it.18. I think you do get it. Glad to see that.
B&M Invert - existing, basic technology, and rolled into an interesting combination of the same stuff we'd all see for years. Different, but not innovative in terms of technology.
Intamin Hydraulic Launch - souped-up, wildly advanced version of ancient technology. Far more refined and tweaked. Innovative in several ways.
Let's ditch impulses, then. Let's talk about Volcano. Launched invert using LSMs of a much different, and much more reliable, style than previously seen. Didn't work right off the bat like it should have, but still a wild new concept. Different LSMs, different way of getting inverts to speed. A wild combination.
Oh, and the invert was a concept, too. Never said it wasn't. Just not an innovative one as far as technology is concerned.
Now, for the moment everyone’s been waiting for, I shall actually pull out the definition of the word “innovation.”
Innovation – The introduction of something new. OR A new idea, method, or device.
I’ll play nice. The invert was innovative in that it was a new method. Not a new idea (Arrow tossed around the idea of making suspendeds go upside-down from the start), nor a new device. So I remain truthful when I say that as far as new technology goes, the invert is not innovative. Only in the combination of existing technologies was it innovative.
So are you happy Ryan? You're precious invert gets the one aspect of innovation that every ride style ever made and each company's interpretation of it gets. After all, every new style that comes out is innovative if it's not completely identical to another. My argument stands.
Mike T
11-06-2007, 08:45 PM
Setting aside the technological feats that both firms have made, I will make a statement that I believe Intamin track work is a little bit more radical in design than Bolliger and Mabillards, making their roller coasters seem much more original than that for which B&M designs by. Things like the following visual aids are reasons that I enjoy what Intamin has to offer:
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m178/mike2008t/mav1.jpg http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m178/mike2008t/Mav2.jpg
One of the things that I really enjoy about Intamin is their ability to take such an unorthodox piece of track and make it "ride-able". Things like Maverick's Twist and Dives, Storm Runner's Flying Snake Dives, Speed monster's Norwegian loop, and Atlantis Adventure's oblique Top hat excite me, because those aren't carbon copy elements.
Now to be perfectly fair to B&M, Intamin does do a lot of things that go assimilated on many of their rides. Things like the over banked turn, or the Top hat/bunny hill combination detract from their artistry of innovated ride elements because you can find a near copy of the same thing at another park. On the contrary, although this style of design is noticable in B&M attractions, the ride characteristics of these elements are all different pertaining to each individual roller coaster. In the instance of Intamin, rides are "scaled to size" rather than tailored to the amount of forces that riders would experience on a particular section of a coaster. This "phenomena" of design is the cross hairs for which both companies collide, making their rides some what similar by conception.
While I've never been on an "innovative" Intamin product, I do applaud them for being radical and somewhat dangerous by nature (no pun intended) for the way they design things. But as I balance out the scale for which I compare both products, I find that Bolliger and Mabillard's designs are all very solid rides, offering a variety of forces, speeds, heights, and configurations of flips through every attraction that they build. The solidity of these attractions makes B&M seem more like the conservative firm, versus Intamin (The "Liberal" firm) which obviously isn't afraid to take a risk, if its going to give them a nice return of investment.
With that said, its painstakingly obvious to see why there isn't an Intamin coaster in the state of Florida, and why some of the top Intamin coasters in the world are at smaller foreign parks, who get their claim to fame based on their unusual but successful design of attraction (IE: Expedition GeForce). This also shows why there is a trend for the B&M roller coaster in larger markets such as Six Flags, Cedar Fair, Busch, Universal, Tussauds, and everything else. There are so many factors besides what makes a ride "good" that go into determining the investment of a new multi million dollar scream machine. If it wasn't for factors like the higher capacity rate on B&M roller coasters in comparison to Intamin's product; or the fact that Intamin as ventured into propulsion and wooden dynamics, while B&M has stayed generally conservative only altering rider positions on one general style of track; I think this argument that is being carried out wouldn't seem so pedantic, and the sides that people have chosen would be so foggy. I think deep down in every enthusiast's heart there lies a love for every ride that has been created. Determining which "designs" are superior can be difficult due to the passion and emotion thats goes along with being into this particular form of entertainment. Had we all been general public who rides roller coasters for self enjoyment, rather than picking them apart down to the number of bolts applied to a footer on a particular model of coaster, I think decisions like this wouldn't take 11 pages to come to consensus.
As for me, I still don't have a definitive side to take on this topic, but if you were to ask me if I wanted to buy an Intamin product, or a B&M product, I'm going with the latter, because I understand that my product is going to be consistent with everything else that the firm has created. Had Intamin showed as good of a report card on factors of reliability, guest satisfaction, and capacitative numbers, I think my feels for the company wouldn't be so bitter sweet. Its almost as if one day I love them, the next day I ask "What were they thinking?" where as with B&M, I have a feeling of contentment, and I always have had that feeling towards their product. So thats what I think at this moment in time for those of you who have been eager to hear my opinion. I hope what I've said is satisfactory enough for you to understand my opinion.
SnooSnoo
11-06-2007, 09:30 PM
15. Maverick is $21,000,000 thanks to some elaborate theming. Tatsu doesn't have any. It's just straight-up expensive.
And $16,000,000 for the ride alone for Black Mamba? Holy smokes! That's expensive! And look at Fahrenheit. Much cheaper, and of similar magnitude (well, maybe Fahrenheit is a little bigger ;)).
Behemoth is also 21 million.. while a 80ft taller version, Millennium Force, is only 4 million more.
The Storm Runner
11-06-2007, 09:47 PM
^Yes, but Millennium Force is 1,200 ft longer, and it also has a cable lift and two stations, not to mention how complex its supports are, whereas Behemoth's are simple and fewer.
To put Hersheypark into perspective here, Great Bear cost 13 million in 1998, Storm Runner cost 12.5 in 2004, and now Fahrenheit costs 12.1.
sirloin
11-06-2007, 10:04 PM
He was defending Intamin and criticizing B&M on that one.
I read it as him defending Intamin...saying that you could buy 80ft (a hell of a lot at already over 200ft.) for not too much more.
Just something I saw and wanted to point out..
Fahrenheit 12 Mill
Furius Baco 21 Mill
Maverick 21 Mill
---
Griffon 15 Mill
Black Mamba 16 Mill (ride only, not theming)
Patriot 14 Mill
Tatsu 21 Mill
(And if Intamin produced another Mega today it'd be just as much as B&M Megas)
This is not a fair comparison..The reason that Maverick and Furious Baco are so expensive is because they both use sophisticated launch technology. Maverick uses Linear Synchronous Motors, which I believe cost over 6 mil, and Baco's hydraulic launch system boasts a pretty hefty price tag as well. So of course these coasters will be more expensive than others using standard chain lifts and air/magnetic brakes.
-Alex
^ I think that's his point. While the technology is 'great' it comes with a hefty price tag.
sirloin
11-06-2007, 11:11 PM
Um...his comparison proves B&M to be more expensive. See my most recent novel of a post.
jolash
11-06-2007, 11:58 PM
B&M also uses more steel because of the larger, denser track. Because Intamin uses lattice-like structured track, there is less steel used. The higher B&M costs are most likely a result of this.
Steel's expensive now-a-days folks.
Thrill Reconnoiter
11-07-2007, 02:59 AM
I'm spending way too much time on saying the same principals again, so I'm keeping this short.
I hope you simply misunderstood, because if you're trying to tell me that the B&Ms are very different from each other as far as the basic engineering is concerned, then you must be on something.
Do you ever wonder why all B&M's have a similiar design? It's because they've found a very usuable design that works and can be applied elsewhere. Why does each Intamin look progressively different up until a few years ago? They were jumping around trying to find working technology.
Oh, and you seem to have forgotten the cardinal rule of RCPro: don’t mess with sirloin, lest ye receiveth a severe thrashing which ye shalt reget for all time.
I laughed a little, cried a little, then vomited on myself. I can make paltry remarks and claim I just pwndzther0x0rzomgz outta' someone too.
All humor aside, I rather liked your comments about the NSPE ethics. You need to not assume I’m putting out a bunch of mumbo-jumbo and maybe consider I do know what I’m talking about. Would you like to see a project I’ve done? I’m sure I still have a few around here. Perhaps I could also fax you a copy of the exam I just landed a pretty A on (one of several). Or maybe the one I got a 100 on. Want my student ID number to prove I’m not bluffing? I’m not lying to you.
That's great and all, but it doesn't meet any sort of credibility.
3. I'm sorry if I made it sound like I thought that all B&Ms even felt the same, regardless of type. You'd be hard-pressed to convince me Nitro and Batman-The Ride feel the same. Variety in ride-style is definitely present.
:D
4. Until you can tell me exactly how I'm contradicting myself, I don't know how to help you. I'm gonna do my best to try and break this down for you, though...Or maybe you think I'm contradicting myself by saying one minute that a heartline is advanced and the next minute saying it isn't. Now this is a stretch, because I can't even begin to try and figure out how you'd assume that's what I'm getting at, but no, a heartline isn't advanced. And even if it was, it wasn't the invert that introduced it.
Yes, go over the last few pages and you'll find it. Like I said before, you mentioned that the heartlining process of getting new elements to work is more advanced than inverts-so you could manipulate it to prove your case-but later said that heartlining is rather simple.
An invert is a basic swinging suspended coaster that doesn't swing. Not an ARROW swinging suspended coaster that doesn't swing, which is where I think you're having a problem following me, but it's a suspended coaster that doesn't swing.
Once again, what does it matter if it's an Arrow or not?
If it would help you understand me, let's say B&M built a swinging suspended coaster. It would be more advanced than the invert, which doesn't swing. Takes more advanced technology to make a ride swing than it does to make it go upside-down.
Indeed it would be, but to say that the B&M Invert isn't as advanced as an Arrow suspension coaster (or generic suspension coaster since you don't like when I say Arrow for some reason), I think that's a stretch.
7. A wildly advanced version of a Schwartzkopf, yes. Far more capable and power. A huge advancement in technology. I'm looking at both sides. Inverts are not more advanced suspendeds, rather, they're different suspendeds. Different and more advanced are two different things.
And different is defined as "Innovative."
being or producing something like nothing done or experienced or created before; The very same you claimed Intamin to be. Like I said before, there are three new elements to the Invert (floorless, fixated, inversions), how many to the launch? Zero! Seems like the Invert takes the innovative cake, or you still got something to pull out of nowhere for this r0x0rslaunches0mgz? -because I'm getting tired of repeating it.
8. I never said they were the worst-rated. However, for all Arrow knew, people wanted the swinging more than they wanted the flips, and that's why they didn't make it. Heck, maybe they thought people would like them, but that they'd like the suspendeds more, and didn't want to use up development resources on a ride they may not have been convinced would be successful. Your argument is an easy one to make 15 years after the fact.
I was using a bit of satire in saying that they were horribly rated; because I find it hard to believe they thought people wouldn't like inversions, after all, their custom loopers were taken fairly well.
You get floorless. Not the other two. A fixated car was invented when the first two digits of the year were a one and an eight, and the first successful inversions came out in 1975 (or thereabouts). Combining basic existing technology, once again, does not make a ride innovative or advanced.
Making an inverted coaster pull off a bunch of inversions isn't "innovative?" Ground Control to Major Justin. And your statement: are we supposed to acknowledge this and throw out the fact that there were other launches before Intamin? Both ways, again.
A massively souped-up version (so much so that it may as well be new) of an ancient launch system that now offers up face-peeling acceleration is innovation.
Really, because I, and 99.99% of everyone else, thought that the launch on Xcelerator was very similar to that on Montezooma's. Definition of innovative above.
11. Not an excuse at all, my friend. Power and acceleration are two different things. Acceleration is the change in velocity over time, and power is the change in work (mass x distance x acceleration) over time. So you see? Unless there's more mass in an S&S train then there is in an Intamin train, or enough of an increase in acceleration to compensate for the lighter weight(we'll use Kingda Ka, just to make it even harder for you, as I'm pretty sure KK has the fastest acceleration of any rocket under standard operating conditions ;)), then no, air-powered launches are not more powerful.
0-128MPH in 3.8 seconds, 0-107MPH in 1.8 seconds. Do the math. ;)
And you forget compressed air is just that, compressed air! The basic concept of its technology is so simple they could make more powerful launches relatively easy.
Having the fastest acceleration out there is plenty good enough for me, and I'll gladly take a peel-the-paint-off-your-face 0-80 in 1.8 seconds launch anyday. Doesn't mean it's more powerful, though.
Power-to-weight ratio, that's engineering 101. They don't have to make something more powerful to go faster...hence why a Lotus Elise only puts out 120hp.
13. Plug 'n Play woodies.
You say this improvement of technology is more "innovative" than the B&M inverts? Sorry, but I need another "innovative" claim. Got a Jack of Hearts? Already hit on this:
The basic principal of plugnplay technology goes back to the 20's-though I think Holzbau-Cordes had a hand in Intamin's prefab (might be wrong).
15. Maverick is $21,000,000 thanks to some elaborate theming. Tatsu doesn't have any. It's just straight-up expensive.
And $16,000,000 for the ride alone for Black Mamba? Holy smokes! That's expensive! And look at Fahrenheit. Much cheaper, and of similar magnitude (well, maybe Fahrenheit is a little bigger ;)).
16. How's this for inflation?
Raptor - $11,500,000 1994 dollars
Steel Force - $10,000,000 1996 dollars.
Inflate that, Sickles.
I was refering to B:TR as the first invert, but we can play this game if you want. How much are plugnplays? Eight, nine or 10 million? Good golly Ms. Molley! Ozark Wildcat and KY Rumbler were only 4 million, I could have two of them badboys for the price of El Toro.
17. If it were more appealing to Arrow, they'd have done it. They haven't always been the best at forecasting trends, though. You know that as well as I do. I said it was the decision Arrow made, Ryan. I didn't say it was a good one.
However, it would be irresponsible to say that they had the technology to make a suspension coaster do some inversions. It's like saying B&M could make a launch if they wanted...no one knows.
B&M Invert - existing, basic technology, and rolled into an interesting combination of the same stuff we'd all see for years. Different, but not innovative in terms of technology.
Intamin Hydraulic Launch - souped-up, wildly advanced version of ancient technology. Far more refined and tweaked. Innovative in several ways.
Let's ditch impulses, then. Let's talk about Volcano. Launched invert using LSMs of a much different, and much more reliable, style than previously seen. Didn't work right off the bat like it should have, but still a wild new concept. Different LSMs, different way of getting inverts to speed. A wild combination.
So the jump from suspended coasters to B&M Inverts is not as "innovative" as Intamin Impulses copying B&M Inverts? This is a jocular remark.
Now, for the moment everyone’s been waiting for, I shall actually pull out the definition of the word “innovation.”
I’ll play nice. The invert was innovative in that it was a new method. Not a new idea (Arrow tossed around the idea of making suspendeds go upside-down from the start), nor a new device. So I remain truthful when I say that as far as new technology goes, the invert is not innovative. Only in the combination of existing technologies was it innovative.
Metioned above.
This is not a fair comparison..The reason that Maverick and Furious Baco are so expensive is because they both use sophisticated launch technology. Maverick uses Linear Synchronous Motors, which I believe cost over 6 mil, and Baco's hydraulic launch system boasts a pretty hefty price tag as well. So of course these coasters will be more expensive than others using standard chain lifts and air/magnetic brakes.
A ride is a ride. Do you think a guest cares that ROTM was $40million or Everest was $100million? Some guests think their $11million(est) B:TR clone is way better.
-----------
Believe what you want, I just hoped I opened up some thoughts and questions into peoples minds.
I'm done with this thread.
If it would help you understand me, let's say B&M built a swinging suspended coaster. It would be more advanced than the invert, which doesn't swing. Takes more advanced technology to make a ride swing than it does to make it go upside-down.
I'd sure like to see some proof on that one. It sure seems a lot easier to me to let the car swing than to have it invert. Not to mention that the swinging coasters need very little (if any) banking on their turns, where-as the regular inverts don't have that luxury. The design and engineering of a fixated invert is definitely is definitely more advandced than a suspended coaster.
7. A wildly advanced version of a Schwartzkopf, yes. Far more capable and power. A huge advancement in technology. I'm looking at both sides. Inverts are not more advanced suspendeds, rather, they're different suspendeds. Different and more advanced are two different things.
Wildly advanced version? I think it's just 'different', and as you said, different and more advanced are very different things.
Seriously, they are improving, and they're alot better now than they were, at least from what I've heard (and seen with Storm Runner). I'm not saying I'm OK with them not getting it right the first time, and that sort of problem is why I constantly praise B&M as being the best. I'm just saying that to say they are complete and utter failures is to ignore the numerous additions they've received since 2002.
If I'm a park owner, I don't care if they're improving, they still wont hold up to the reliability of a B&M. I would agree with Ryan, they are definitely engineering failures. They're fun, but from a maintenance and engineering standpoint, they definitely failed.
15. Maverick is $21,000,000 thanks to some elaborate theming. Tatsu doesn't have any. It's just straight-up expensive.
Have you even seen Maverick? HARDLY elaborate theming. That ride is expensive thanks to the launch technology, and I wonder if they added how much extra it cost to take out the barrel roll and replace it with that 's-curve', hmmm. Tatsu came with a price tag thanks to it's terrain interaction, and it's height after all. It costs more to support a 170 foot coasters than it does a 105 foot coaster ;).
So if you want to compare price tags, try doing it with more similar coasters, okay?
sirloin
11-07-2007, 05:19 PM
Do you ever wonder why all B&M's have a similiar design? It's because they've found a very usuable design that works and can be applied elsewhere. Why does each Intamin look progressively different up until a few years ago? They were jumping around trying to find working technology.Agreed on both. Remember, I like B&M more, so I hope nobody thinks this whole innovation tangent we've run off on has made me tip my hat to Intamin. B&M still does it better than anyone.
I laughed a little, cried a little, then vomited on myself. I can make paltry remarks and claim I just pwndzther0x0rzomgz outta' someone too.All in jest, my friend. I was hoping for an ego joke from Jake. I'm not the hottest thing around. I just like to make jokes, especially because I almost died laughing at the fact that you pulled out engineering ethics on me. I figured you deserved a laugh as well.
That's great and all, but it doesn't meet any sort of credibility.I'm sorry my engineering education doesn't give me any credibility. If that were the case, no engineer would ever be hired for anything. Yeah, I'm not in the workplace yet, but that doesn't mean I don't know anything. I would like to think 4 years of hard work would count for something. Guess it doesn't with you.
Yes, go over the last few pages and you'll find it. Like I said before, you mentioned that the heartlining process of getting new elements to work is more advanced than inverts-so you could manipulate it to prove your case-but later said that heartlining is rather simple.OK. Now I see what you were getting at. First off, the "they" I was referring to were inverts and above the track coasters, not the trains and the heartline. My apologies on the confusion.
Although, neither one is particularly advanced. Even if the train is more advanced than the heartline (as the heartline is essentially an equation, if it's even that complex), the train is still quite basic. The only thing differentiating it from an above-the-track train is the structure of it and the lack of a real "car" around you (though the car part theoretically exists right over your head). Simple modifications to the structure are all that are required.
So in the end, to clarify, neither one was too overly advanced (though the heartline was pretty nifty). Not only that, but even if I counted the heartline as engineering innovation, which I suppose I could as it was so radically different, it premiered at least two years before the invert (using Iron Wolf as my example, though Togo had it earlier on their pipeline coasters, and I think a few other rides may have exhibited it as well).
Once again, what does it matter if it's an Arrow or not?It matters because a B&M invert is wildly different from an Arrow suspended, but not overly different from the absolute most basic decription of the suspended concept (which would basically be any under-the-track coaster). An invert is a suspended coaster that does flips.
Indeed it would be, but to say that the B&M Invert isn't as advanced as an Arrow suspension coaster (or generic suspension coaster since you don't like when I say Arrow for some reason), I think that's a stretch.Good. Now you understand my clarification of the term. As for saying that the suspended is more advanced than the invert, I say this because the swinging requires that nifty mechanism on the train, and you need to be able to calculate the banking and associated swing angle of the train at every point along the track. Otherwise, if you don't get the right banking, the cars could easily snap right off. Why do you think the Bat never worked properly? No banking on the turns. As for an invert, it's just an over-the-track sit-down car strapped under the track. Calculations for banking, loops, etc., are exactly the same, except that the invert's track is in the reverse position and orientation of the standard track. Quite easy to account for, and with the exception of the zero-g roll, all of B-TRs maneuvers had been done before.
I'll be honest, I think it's a fact (read: more than opinion) that the suspended is more advanced technology-wise, but I can understand why people would think the opposite is true. I'm not surprised, and I wouldn't expect everyone to agree unless B&M comes out and says the suspended is more advanced.
And different is defined as "Innovative."
1. being or producing something like nothing done or experienced or created before
The very same you claimed Intamin to be. Like I said before, there are three new elements to the Invert (floorless, fixated, inversions), how many to the launch? Zero! Seems like the Invert takes the innovative cake, or you still got something to pull out of nowhere for this r0x0rslaunches0mgz? -because I'm getting tired of repeating it.I know that different means innovative, which is why I had to account for it in my most recent post (and eat some of my words). However, as I said before, every different coaster style by every different coaster manufacturer is innovative. Heck, every layout is innovative because they're all different. It's the token innovation point that every ride gets.
And no, the invert did not premier all three elements. It premiered the floorless and nothing else (and I only mean floorless in the sense of coasters, as other rides had been doing it for years). It also premiered the combination of the three, but neither that combo, nor the floorless sensation, required any advanced engineering to get it to work. Basic structural engineering.
The launched premiered all sorts of wild, new (or obscenely modified) technology, and that's why I count them as innovation in the engineering sense as well as different. Xcelerator doesn't use the exact same launch system as Montezooma's revenge. It's a massively souped-up, advanced version of the launch system, so yes, it gets the engineering innovation point due to its radical improvement and advancement. Saying a launch is a launch is a launch isn't true. Each one utilizes very different technology, or more advanced technology than a preceding coaster with a somewhat similar style.
There's much more new to a hydraulic launcher than an invert, which bascially took the floor away, which wasn't really anything new, either. Just on coasters. No new technology present. Hydraulic launchers use wildly advanced technology, which, since it's as different as it is similar (more so, but now I'm just being generous to you), is new by definition. The invert was a new concept, but not new technology. I'm not sure why that's so difficult for some people, but whatever.
I was using a bit of satire in saying that they were horribly rated; because I find it hard to believe they thought people wouldn't like inversions, after all, their custom loopers were taken fairly well.I find it hard to believe as well, but again, we're talking about the makers of X. Not only that, but there loopers weren't much compared to the B&Ms when they came out.
Making an inverted coaster pull off a bunch of inversions isn't "innovative?" Ground Control to Major Justin. And your statement: are we supposed to acknowledge this and throw out the fact that there were other launches before Intamin? Both ways, again.No it's not both ways. There's no new technology on an invert. There is on a hydraulic, because if there wasn't, TTD would be a flywheel launch (or, to get more ancient, more likely a counterweight). A launch is not a launch is not a launch. An invert is an above-the-track coaster that rides under the track, or if anyone prefers (which I can't imagine they do) it's a suspended that doesn't swing and goes upside down instead. Either way, no new technology.
Really, because I, and 99.99% of everyone else, thought that the launch on Xcelerator was very similar to that on Montezooma's. Definition of innovative above.The definition of innovative proves me quite right, and I'm referring to both the one I provided (from Webster), and the one you provided. Why you seem to think TTD and Monty are identical (or on the same level of advancement) as far as the launch is concerned, or why you can't seem to understand the wild advancements of a hydraulic launch over a flywheel is completely beyond me, but until you do, I'll never be able to get anywhere with you.
And those 99.99% of the population will tell you Wicked Twister and TTD feel the same launch-wise because you get launched on both. Engineering differences don't always result in a different feel of something. Yeah, you get plastered into your seat every time, but how it's done is wildly different. By your account, the spinning tire launch and a hydraulic launch are the exact same thing because they launch you. I'm here to tell you that no, they aren't the same.
0-128MPH in 3.8 seconds, 0-107MPH in 1.8 seconds. Do the math.
And you forget compressed air is just that, compressed air! The basic concept of its technology is so simple they could make more powerful launches relatively easy.You said air was more powerful, not that it simply accelerates a train quicker. Duh it accelerates quicker.
Now, assuming your comment about them being able to make more powerful launches quite easily, that may be the case. However, it's obviously an obscene increase in expense, or too much of an increase in space required, for S&S to do it. Otherwise, Hypersonic and Dodonpa would have more than 8 people in their trains. Meanwhile, Intamin's wonderful hydraulic system slaughters the air-powered ones capacity-wise with much simpler trains and more seats.
For whatever reason, the air-powered coaster just wasn't good enough to swing more than a slight handful of sales, whilst the hydraulic is hot stuff.
And the hydraulic must be improved, because no way people would be ordering so many of them if it wasn't.
Power-to-weight ratio, that's engineering 101. They don't have to make something more powerful to go faster...hence why a Lotus Elise only puts out 120hp.Engineering 101: power-to-weight and basic power are two different things. Again, you said that the air-powered coaster was more powerful.
Even in terms of the power-to-weight ratio, I'm not convinced the air-powered launch wins. Not knowing the actual weight of it compared to the weight of, say, a Kingda Ka train, I can't say factually which one has the better power-to-weight ratio. Those S&S cars are built like tanks, though. not nearly as sleek as the Intamins.
And even if it does turn out that the air-powered launchers have a better power-to-weight ratio, that doesn't make them more powerful. That means they have a better power-to-weight ratio.
And who knows? Maybe it is more powerful than the hydraulic launchers. Good for them if it is.
And if they don't need more power to go faster (which everyone agrees they don't), why did you bother calling it more powerful? And what do I care if it accelerates a little faster? I'll add a second to the launch to double capacity.
You say this improvement of technology is more "innovative" than the B&M inverts? Sorry, but I need another "innovative" claim. Got a Jack of Hearts? Already hit on this:Have you seen any wooden coasters on the magnitude of Colossos and El Toro ride that well? The wood is specially treated. There's not a zillion crossboards running under the rails. Obviously there's something more advanced about the way Intamin does it, or we would see more of those rides from other manufacturers.
I was refering to B:TR as the first invert, but we can play this game if you want. How much are plugnplays? Eight, nine or 10 million? Good golly Ms. Molley! Ozark Wildcat and KY Rumbler were only 4 million, I could have two of them badboys for the price of El Toro.B-TR was the first invert. I was using Raptor to simply prove that B&Ms aren't affordable.
And for an extra comparison of B&M to Intamin, Darien Lake's Ride of Steel was only $500,000 more expensive than Raptor, and the price I just gave is in 1999 dollars. That's alot of extra track and goodies for only 500 grand.
I never said Intamin was cheap. I said it was cheaper than B&M, and it is.
However, it would be irresponsible to say that they had the technology to make a suspension coaster do some inversions. It's like saying B&M could make a launch if they wanted...no one knows.They didn't have the technology to do both, which I have been saying all along. They made a tradeoff, and it appears they made the wrong one.
Given my arguments about the simplicity of an invert (which is one of it's selling points, something I think you all are missing out on), compared to the suspended, I think it's safe to say Arrow could've built inverts if they wanted to. Yeah, nobody knows, but I think it's a safe bet.
So the jump from suspended coasters to B&M Inverts is not as "innovative" as Intamin Impulses copying B&M Inverts? This is a jocular remark.I'm glad you find it so humorous. The jump from inverts to impulses was forward. The jump from suspendeds to inverts is backward. After all, impulses use launch systems that have to alternate directions several times, and even if they only fired forward, those are still some pretty advanced magnets. Mind you, those magnets really made their debut on Volcano, which is why I'm usually more apt to refer to it rather than impulses.
Metioned above.You still aren't disproving me. I ate some of my words and gave it a point for innovation, but I gave it the point that almost every ride of every unique layout and every style ever built gets. You know, the point Top Gun gets for not being SFMM's Viper.
As far as being innovative with wild, new technology, the invert is not, I'm afraid.
A ride is a ride. Do you think a guest cares that ROTM was $40million or Everest was $100million? Some guests think their $11million(est) B:TR clone is way better.I think it's possible you could've defeated him more easily, but hey, in the end, we both agree on this one.
Sorry to see you leave this thread, Ryan. It was fun while it lasted.
I'd sure like to see some proof on that one. It sure seems a lot easier to me to let the car swing than to have it invert. Not to mention that the swinging coasters need very little (if any) banking on their turns, where-as the regular inverts don't have that luxury. The design and engineering of a fixated invert is definitely is definitely more advandced than a suspended coaster.Want proof? Look at the car. Also, as I may have mentioned already, Arrow had to do double-up on calculations. They needed the forces, and they had to calculate banking for both track and train. Quite difficult, to be sure, especially given the limitations of the day.
And the suspendeds don't need banking?
http://www.rcdb.com/ig129.htm?picture=3
http://www.rcdb.com/ig111.htm?picture=10
http://www.rcdb.com/ig73.htm?picture=2
And dear heavens, even this one!
http://www.rcdb.com/ig134.htm?picture=5
Wildly advanced version? I think it's just 'different', and as you said, different and more advanced are very different things.0-55 in 4.5 seconds for Monty, and 0-82 in 2.3 for Xcelerator. Even if Monty's trains weigh more (which they quite probably do), that a serious increase in acceleration. No way a flywheel can crank out the kinda juice a hydraulic launcher can, or there would've been no point in building a hydraulic launcher when much simpler technology could've been used. Intamin wanted some serious oomph behind their launches, and thus the hydraulic was born.
If I'm a park owner, I don't care if they're improving, they still wont hold up to the reliability of a B&M. I would agree with Ryan, they are definitely engineering failures. They're fun, but from a maintenance and engineering standpoint, they definitely failed.Agreed, which is why I mentioned that I wasn't OK with it. But for some reason, some people seem to think that I'm now a massive Intamin supporter. B&M is who I'd go to as well.
Although, I wouldn't call it a total failure. Pretty much from Storm Runner on, excluding Kingda Ka (I think the real problem was scale. They thought they could take the hydraulic system alot farther than they could), the rockets run pretty well.
Simply put, they're fantastic in the small to mid-size range, and they even do well at speeds approaching 100 mph. They just aren't that good yet to go 120+.
Have you even seen Maverick? HARDLY elaborate theming. That ride is expensive thanks to the launch technology, and I wonder if they added how much extra it cost to take out the barrel roll and replace it with that 's-curve', hmmm. Tatsu came with a price tag thanks to it's terrain interaction, and it's height after all. It costs more to support a 170 foot coasters than it does a 105 foot coaster ;).
So if you want to compare price tags, try doing it with more similar coasters, okay?Theming is expensive, my friend. Oh, and Maverick is nearly 1000 feet longer than Tatsu.
--------------------------
I'm gonna wrap my full argument up with this, and I think this is what alot of you who get so caught up in B&M's awesomeness tend to forget. This summarizes my findings and should be all the argument you'll ever need.
B&M's simplicity is quite possibly their greatest strength. They're not out to wow people with wild and crazy technology, and their incredible reliability is a testament to that. Intamin is all about crazy technology and has paid dearly for it time and again. B&M is not lame for not taking that approach. They're smart for it, and 66 additions later, I think you all should agree.
Now why B&Ms simplicity bothers so many of you is beyond me. Why must you get so upset about it?
If any of you feel the need to write yet another book to keep going at it with me, then I'm sorry for you. I guess you missed the cardinal rule your favorite men from Monthey live by.
supremescreamer
11-07-2007, 05:28 PM
Lol, this thread is so stupid.
You can't come to a justified answer because it is all based on opinions. They both have their pro's and con's and people value some things on a higher scale then the next person. It would be like two people arguing over whether nacho cheese doritos are better or cooler ranch....
You guys are wasting your time.
I leave this discussion with this.
Simplicity in itself, is and was, innovative.
And that is why B&M is more innovative than Intamin.
sirloin
11-07-2007, 05:36 PM
You know, you just blew it by getting greedy.
They're innovative in a different way, and I must admit I didn't totally believe that at first. Several novels later, though, it's the conclusion I've come to.
B&M takes simplicity, Intamin takes advanced technology. And indeed, both are forms of innovation.
You were so close, Jake. So close. ;)
Maxamillious
11-07-2007, 11:03 PM
It seems that Justin has defeated the evil Dr. Jake. [/mad scientist voice]
It would be like two people arguing over whether nacho cheese doritos are better or cooler ranch....Cool Ranch all the way. ;)
The bottom line is:
You can't come to a justified answer because it is all based on opinions.And with that said, I think it’s time that we let this thread sleep.
And with that said, I think it’s time that we let this thread sleep.
Obviously which company makes better rides is opinion, but I think the facts lie in the companies themselves, the decisions they make, and many other important factors (read through the thread, because I'm not listin' them). Of course not everyone will come to a consensus, this is a debate. The whole idea is that we share and defend our opinions!
sirloin
11-07-2007, 11:26 PM
The whole idea is that we share and defend our opinions!Even if it takes us 5 hours per post to do so! Go book-length posts! w00t! ;)
To sum my findings up for all the n00bs who don't like books, B&M roXorz teh biG1111!!1!1!!!
It seems that Justin has defeated the evil Dr. Jake. [/mad scientist voice]
I think I'll steal a quote from Justin to fend this one off.
Quit talking about owning people and actually do it.
Thank you, and goodnight.
tycooner55
11-09-2007, 10:40 PM
B&M is better. After riding Shiekra recently, I confirmed this.
Sure Millennium Force and Top Thrill Dragster are fun, but the roar and inversions of B&Ms are just better. Plus, B&M has brought us the invert, flyer, floorless, and dive machine. That's pretty innovative IMO.
Michael
11-10-2007, 09:21 PM
^And Intamin has brought us the Giga, Inverted Impluse, the Rocket, Wingwalker, and of course: the most refined hydraulic and magnetic luanches out there.
I think these two are just two different to fairly compare, it's apples against oranges; it's that simple people :rolleyes:
^And Intamin has brought us the Giga, Inverted Impluse, the Rocket, Wingwalker, and of course: the most refined hydraulic and magnetic luanches out there.
I'd like to note that all of those have more technical problems indivually than all the B&M coasters put together ;).
I think these two are just two different to fairly compare, it's apples against oranges; it's that simple people :rolleyes:
As far as I'm concerned, anything can be compared, but perhaps that's just me.
sirloin
11-10-2007, 09:28 PM
Um...why is it that every debate that doesn't reach a consensus becomes an apples-to-oranges debate with you? We've compared them on several different levels already, and all of those comparisons were valid. Yeah, we have different reasons for liking each company, but that doesn't mean we can't compare them.
p0tat0
11-17-2007, 07:07 PM
I love Intamin's rockets, they're definitely a one of a kind. I can look past their technical difficulties and see the elegant strength in the launches :)
theRock-steel
11-18-2007, 04:14 PM
It's funny that you asked this. A while ago, I took the time to write down the names of the coasters that I really liked. After doing a little research, I wrote beside each coaster the name of the designer/builder. Seventeen are from B&M and only five are from Intamin.
I do agree with what some have said that B&M takes a much safer less radical approach to design. Most of their rides are copies of one another. The fact is that almost all are good though.
The most extreme rides on the planet are all by Intamin (El Toro, Kingda Ka, Expedition GeForce,
Millennium Force, Superman The Escape, Superman Ride of Steel, Top Thrill Dragster, Volcano, etc.). There is some coping there, but most are unique in one way or another. Two things do hurt their popularity. Normally there is just one coaster by Intamin in a park, so a lot of people may not have ridden twenty of their rides. Secondly, they make some wooden coasters which means they have to share the spotlight with Custom Coasters International, Dinn Corporation, Great Coasters International, etc..
Right now I have more B&M's that I like, but that may change when I have ridden more by Intamin.
thatdancingbear
11-18-2007, 09:24 PM
^ I wouldn't put S:TE on that list... Its one of the weakest rides I've been on...
jolash
11-18-2007, 09:52 PM
...Two things do hurt their popularity. Normally there is just one coaster by Intamin in a park, so a lot of people may not have ridden twenty of their rides. Secondly, they make some wooden coasters which means they have to share the spotlight with Custom Coasters International, Dinn Corporation, Great Coasters International, etc..
Your second statement doesn't make sense. How are they "sharing the spotlight"? Intamin, in fact, stands apart from the rest because of their use of a unique track material. Your comment is also very vague in the sense that CCI and Dinn Corp. don't even exist anymore.
sfgam2006
11-18-2007, 10:10 PM
I had thought about this topic very much earlier this year when I was going to the parks on a more often basis. They are definitly the 1-2 punch when it comes to the designing of steel roller coasters (I have never been on a Intamin woodie from what I know of, actually I have, American Eagle).
Anyways, it is very hard to decide on which one is better as they have two very different style on building the coasters. B&M's coasters are based off inversions, drops, and many curves/twists/and other vast features. Intamin is based off speed, height, and just how extreme a coaster can get.
If I take some of the best coasters I've been on and just split them up between the two companies.
B&M has such coasters as Wildfire which has amazing air-time, Tatsu which has probably the best element I have ever experienced on a roller coaster (the pretzel loop), and many other unique coasters. Some of the old B&M's are disliked (Iron Wolf, Vortex, other older coasters from the 1990's.
Intamin has a very interesting contrast of coasters as they both cover wood and steel. Some of their steel coasters such as Xcelerator which packs an amazing punch in such a short amount of time, V2 which is a very fun ride, and one of their woodies American Eagle which features the classic intensity of a woodie with the quality of an Intamin coaster. Intamin on the other hand is an older company and has many more rides that B&M that are disliked. Still, I think that they have equaly good quality.
When you think about it, if we never had Intamin, we never would have had B&M since where did the creators of B&M come from? They both have very good coasters but because of its contrast and more selection of rides, and more expierience this particular company has, I would have to give the edge to Intamin. And.. they also have California Screamin' which I forgot about which is the best coaster to have fun on, it is probably one of the best coasters ever made in history for that reason, if it had the theming, it would be for sure.
- Zach
Michael
11-18-2007, 10:10 PM
^^ I'm confused, how is Intamin's track material unique?
jolash
11-18-2007, 10:59 PM
Anyways, it is very hard to decide on which one is better as they have two very different style on building the coasters. B&M's coasters are based off inversions, drops, and many curves/twists/and other vast features. Intamin is based off speed, height, and just how extreme a coaster can get.
That's pretty ignorant. Look at Maverick, Colossus, Rita, Kanonen, etc. etc. Those are more than the biggest, fastest, or most advanced.
And while Intamin definitely beats out B&M for height and speed, B&M still has plenty with Silver Star, Behemoth, Nitro, etc.
B&M has such coasters as Wildfire which has amazing air-time, Tatsu which has probably the best element I have ever experienced on a roller coaster (the pretzel loop), and many other unique coasters. Some of the old B&M's are disliked (Iron Wolf, Vortex, other older coasters from the 1990's.
Iron Wolf and Vortex are also both stand-ups. Batman The Ride, Top Gun, Kumba, Nemesis, Raptor, Dragon Khan, some of the best B&Ms ever, were all built in 1995 or earlier.
And.. they also have California Screamin' which I forgot about which is the best coaster to have fun on, it is probably one of the best coasters ever made in history for that reason, if it had the theming, it would be for sure.
Did you just say a Disney coaster doesn't have theming? :rolleyes:
Plus, Cali Screamin' is far from the best coaster ever.
^^ I'm confused, how is Intamin's track material unique?
Intamin uses a manufactured, wooden laminate; not raw, stained wood.
Iron Wolf and Vortex are also both stand-ups. Batman The Ride, Top Gun, Kumba, Nemesis, Raptor, Dragon Khan, some of the best B&Ms ever, were all built in 1995 or earlier.
Other than Raptor, I would have to agree.
Did you just say a Disney coaster doesn't have theming? :rolleyes:
Plus, Cali Screamin' is far from the best coaster ever.
Quoted for truth. What's up with all the Screamin' love? It's a tad rattly, exceptionally boring, and has little to no airtime these days.
As far as theming is concerned, I think it has a great theme. It's clearly a take on a classic boardwalk coaster. Great theme in my book.
theRock-steel
11-20-2007, 09:58 PM
Your second statement doesn't make sense. How are they "sharing the spotlight"? Intamin, in fact, stands apart from the rest because of their use of a unique track material. Your comment is also very vague in the sense that CCI and Dinn Corp. don't even exist anymore.
You might think that Intamin "stands apart" for whatever reason, but GCI fans such as myself might still like them better. You are right that CCI and Dinn Corp. don't exist anymore however, that doesn't mean that their coasters aren't popular. Many of CCI's core group of designers and engineers are now with The Gravity Group.
The bottom line is there is more competition with Intamin. B&M only has to worry about other steel coaster manufactures. Intamin has competition on two fronts, steel and wooden. Personally, I think they are losing the fight for wood but are competing very well for steel.
It does stand apart, maybe not in how much people like them, but in the way they are manufactured and built.
jolash
11-20-2007, 10:24 PM
You might think that Intamin "stands apart" for whatever reason, but GCI fans such as myself might still like them better. You are right that CCI and Dinn Corp. don't exist anymore however, that doesn't mean that their coasters aren't popular. Many of CCI's core group of designers and engineers are now with The Gravity Group.
The bottom line is there is more competition with Intamin. B&M only has to worry about other steal coaster manufactures. Intamin is fighting a battle on two fronts, steal and wooden. Personally, I think they are losing the fight for wood but are competing very well for steal.
Lol, you make it sound like there's some big "war front" amongst the manufacturers in the industry. It's not like that. Intamin is not losing any "wooden war." They are not "fighting on two fronts". And B&M doesn't have any more job security because they don't manufacture woodies.
In fact, many companies will actually work together on rides. Stengel's firm works with not only Intamin, but B&M, Mack, Gerstlauer, Zierer, Premier, Zamperla, and more.
Also, the most obvious relationship between companies, is that of wooden manufacturers, such as Gravity Group, and Philadelphia Toboggan Coasters.
By the way, the correct spelling is steel, not steal. To steal is to rob someone of something. Steel is a hard metal.
I personally don't understand Rollercoaster Fanboyism. About the only industry that makes any sense in is video games. Everywhere else it's just ridiculous. We, the riders, only benefit from any cooperation and competition among manufacturers of coasters.
Thrill Reconnoiter
11-20-2007, 11:02 PM
^I have no idea what you mean, so I'm going to assume you're talking about the fact enthusiasts don't get the say in what will be build and what won't.
Lol, you make it sound like there's some big "war front" amongst the manufacturers in the industry. It's not like that. Intamin is not losing any "wooden war." They are not "fighting on two fronts".
Huh? You are telling me every company is related and shares all their money? No, of course there's competition! Since Intamin first stepped in the wooden game with Colossus, they've only claimed about 15% (I'm too lazy to get specific, so I rounded) of the wooden market. I saw an IntaRide booth at IAAPA. Where they there just to have some beers? Nope, they're were putting on a business-front for investors. They'd love to increase that 15%.
In fact, many companies will actually work together on rides. Stengel's firm works with not only Intamin, but B&M, Mack, Gerstlauer, Zierer, Premier, Zamperla, and more.
Stengel now manufacturers rides?!?! They're just an engineering consultant. Very seldom will the "big" manufacturers work together.
Also, the most obvious relationship between companies, is that of wooden manufacturers, such as Gravity Group, and Philadelphia Toboggan Coasters.
When was the last time PTC made a wooden coaster? They gave up that game a long time ago.
Huh? You are telling me every company is related and shares all their money? No, of course there's competition! Since Intamin first stepped in the wooden game with Colossus, they've only claimed about 15% (I'm too lazy to get specific, so I rounded) of the wooden market.
Intamin's been making woodies for a long, long time, they built American Eagle in '81. But, the prefab idea has been the first worthwhile reason any company should have reason to purchase a coaster from them. And, 15% isn't too shabby for a company just starting to take off in the wooden region...hell, GG has a wonderful of having some of the best wooden coasters ever (partially due to their coming off of GCI) but they've only built three, the fourth being Ravine Flyer II.
jolash
11-20-2007, 11:12 PM
Don't take everything I say so word-for-word literally.
Huh? You are telling me every company is related and shares all their money? No, of course there's competition! Since Intamin first stepped in the wooden game with Colossus, they've only claimed about 15% (I'm too lazy to get specific, so I rounded) of the wooden market. I saw an IntaRide booth at IAAPA. Where they there just to have some beers? Nope, they're were putting on a business-front for investors. They'd love to increase that 15%.
No, no. You're twisting what I've stated. bettersteal made it sound as if there's a big war between every company, when really, companies' feelings towards each other are probably indifferent. Of course there is competition out there. Business doesn't function without competition. It's just not to the extreme bettersteal makes it out to be.
In fact, Mack and GCI work very well together. Notice that their booths were next to each other at IAAPA.
Stengel now manufacturers rides?!?! They're just an engineering consultant. Very seldom will the "big" manufacturers work together.I was simply noting that although Stengel primarily works with Intamin, the firm works with many, many manufacturers out there.
When was the last time PTC made a wooden coaster? They gave up that game a long time ago.I was noting something more along the lines of the fact that they work together getting trains that work well for the ride.
(partially due to their coming off of GCI)
CCI, not GCI.
CCI, not GCI.
My bad! Too many C's and G's these days.
I was simply noting that although Stengel primarily works with Intamin, that the firm works with many, many manufacturers out there.
It's sort of like being a weapons manufacturer...you'll sell your stuff to both teams if they can pay good money for it.
Thrill Reconnoiter
11-20-2007, 11:31 PM
^^I gotcha' now. :)
Intamin's been making woodies for a long, long time, they built American Eagle in '81. But, the prefab idea has been the first worthwhile reason any company should have reason to purchase a coaster from them.
Yeah sorry, I meant just prefabs since I doubt they're going back to their old method...considering Sandor Kernacs said that Colossus hasn't had a single piece of track replaced.
I was talking about people getting all obsessed with this coaster builder over this other one which is where this seems to be going. They're all coasters, and while they may be very different and have different skills in their craft, they're still the biggest names in coasters for a reason. Some of you may have more fun on many B&M rides than on Intamin rides but then I bet there's a few Intamin's you like better then some B&Ms, and then Arrow probably makes some that you ride all the time reguaardless of how they compare to the others, and for all I know, your favorite could be a Vekoma. I mean, I don't even know who makes half the coasters I ride, point being, it doesn't really matter all that much to the rider, the consumer. If two companies colaborate on a project we get the best of bothe worlds, if two compete, we reap the benefits of them trying to outdo each other. That's all I'm saying.
Youhow2
11-21-2007, 05:55 PM
Going back to the smaller picture... I think The "Intamin pushes the technology enevlope", arguement is flawed... The HL obviously has alot of problems, Especially any one over 90 mph... The thing is that they OBVIOUSLY got too ahead of themselves. Yes, they can send a train full of people over 120 mph, but the fact is that they cant do anything with it, besides send people up and down...
They have all this potential for more speed, but simply, they cant do anything that it's designed to do with...
Because I know I'm about to get shot-down, let me clarify my point
Intamin desinged this amazing wonder that is a hydralic launch, because it can generate high speeds in a shorter amount of time than a LIM launch. MY point is that for smaller speeds LIMS would do the job just fine, and probaly be more reliable(and the lim laucnh's are weaker arguement is also flawed, because it depends on how they are programmed to go off, not the fact that the are weak in general. I also highly doubt CF or SF would care as long as the train made it through the course.) than HL's. They generate all this speed, and yet intamin doesnt have the technology to do anything with it, besides go really high and come back down, which was capable a long while ago, just not feasable(S:TE).
That's one reason I don't think I'd like Top Thrill or Kingda Ka, there's nothing to them. They go up and back down in a few seconds after waiting in line for hours. There's that and I just don't like the idea ove sudden launch at that speed. Over 60mph I think speed should always be gained by the first drop. But I'd love a 120 loop or something crazy like that. A 500 ft drop seems awesome too but not if I need that kind of launch to get up there.
Notice, by the way, that I said I didn't think I'd like those rides, not those companies.
sirloin
11-21-2007, 06:26 PM
Youhow2, when you predicted you were gonna get shot down, you were probably more correct than in anything you've ever said on here.
LIMs or LSMs can't do the job in the amount of space a hydraulic launch coaster can do the job in, and that's coming straight from Sandor's mouth. And given that the smaller hydraulic launchers are extremely reliable, I believe that they're better for the rides they're used on. They're more economical (according to Sandor) then power-sucking magnets, and more powerful, too. Mind you, you aren't going to stick five different cable launch systems on Revenge of the Mummy, but for that one big launch, they're great.
And the 400+ foot hydraulic launchers could have 10,000 foot layouts with dive loops, cobra rolls, camelbacks, spirals, etc. Question is, do you have $60,000,000+ to fund them, and do you have the ridiculous amount of space to build one in? I didn't think so. Cedar Point sure didn't and Six Flags Great Adventure didn't, but they wanted big, and Intamin delivered. It's not an issue with the capability of the ride. After all, the launch basically replaces a lift hill. The train technology isn't overly different from that on the regular megacoasters. It's just a matter of what the customer wants, can afford, and has the space to build, and right now, no customers have the disposable income or space (or both) to build anything other than top hats, and those who have both just don't want to build any right now.
Youhow2
11-21-2007, 07:13 PM
Did I not say that I know LIMS cant do the job that the HL can do in a shorter amount of time? look at the first few lines of my last post...
Sure Intamin can build it, even though no one wants it right now... My point (overly generalized), is if you got this "Mega-strata-looper" that will need more advanced technology than TTD or KK, and they both have problems, what's the point of having the technology to send the trains flying down the track at that speed, If it's not in demand, no one has land for it, and it's predessors are worse horrible with loading times, horrible with down time, and last only a few seconds, why build it? sure there's storm runner and xcelerator and rides of that sort that use smaller launches, but those dont even begin to push the evelope(even though storm runner has that amazing flying snake dive).
sirloin
11-21-2007, 07:41 PM
...and the LIM launches are weaker arguement is also flawed, because it depends on how they are programmed to go off, not the fact that the are weak in generalYep, I did read your post. You said they weren't weaker. But yet, you're arguing that you did say they were weaker. To be honest, you contradicted yourself. You did in fact say they couldn't get the job done in the same amount of space as a hydraulic launch, but then you said they weren't weaker. If they weren't, they'd need only as much space as the hydraulic launch. The amount of space needed is dependent on how much power the launch system puts out, so if LIMs need longer launch segments, by definition, they're weaker.
And what advanced technology does a strata-looper need that TTD doesn't already have built in? Putting a bigger loop in doesn't need new technology. All it is is inanimate track. There's no new technology needed. They could've built TTD with a cobra roll if Cedar Point wanted it. The technology to make them go upside down has been present ever since they were built. It's only a matter of space, funding, and customer desire, and there just hasn't been anyone with all 3 so far. Simply put, if I had the amount of land WDW had and $100,000,000, you'd see a 500+ foot rocket with inversions in the next couple of years. I've almost got the layout done already.
sfgam2006
11-21-2007, 08:45 PM
Well, here is what I think. Going back to the previous posts on the 14th page, I do think that I was a little black and white but those are my opinions.
Yes, Intamin does use inversions/etc.. you don't see anything like B&M's sit downs or Floorless coasters besides Colossus and if I am correct, that isn't the world's most popular coaster.
On my second quote, I meant from the earlier period of B&M Coasters (1990-1994). I just rode Iron Wolf over the summer and doesn't even compare to any other B&M, I prefer both Vekoma Boomerangs (Knott's and Elitchs) over this coaster. I have also heard that the other stand ups are getting rough and are disliked. Yes, Kumba, Dragon Khan, and mostly all the rest of the coasters you mentioned are great coasters and are some of B&Ms best.
Oh man, oh man where have we been. First of all, compared to other Disney's coasters, California Screamin is maybe a 4/10 when it comes to theming. Sure, the ride doesn't need any and that is understandable, but the queue, station, and pre launch ride area has NO/LITTLE theming and the theming that is there isn't amazing. It is better then a Six Flags/Cedar Fair theme job but come on, this is Disney and we should be expecting much more, just like most of DCA. Now as the coaster goes, before they added the new breaking system, this ride was airtime crazy and honestly a piece of art, after the addition of the new breaks, it isn't as good, but still probably the most fun coaster ever even though it isn't really extreme compared to other modern coasters. It is just loads of fun.
I hope I made some sort of more reasonable opinion as I think my other was just rushed and sort of black and white in a way. Sorry if you disagree with me and critize me all you want, but this is just truely what I think.
- Zach
Youhow2
11-21-2007, 09:48 PM
I meant weaker as in, "It's more intense on-ride", regardless of that, I see your point.
I'm no scientist, but a rollercoaster going through it's course at 120+ will have to change alot with the elements I'm sure. Since it hasnt been built in the past there are bound to be unforseen problems...TTD is a 17 second ride , or close to it right? Were talking about a coaster going over 100 mph for an extended period of time. The simple fact is that TTD isnt desinged to sustain 120mph or above for a while It gradually loses speed, than gains some back and stops. What were talking about is a coaster with the ability to sustain speeds over 100, for about 30 seconds, AT LEAST....(There is not a rollercoaster on earth that does that, unless I am unaware...)While navigating some super-insane course? what about the stress on on the track and the trains? What about the forces on the rider? what about the safety issues?(I can think of about 5 right now) What about objects on the track? what about restraints? What about the wheel compounds? what about friction? And what if a unforseen problem occurs while people are onboard this super-coaster? It's not as easy as just super-sizing the elements, Yeah, I can build a popsicle stick rollercoaster that goes 50 scale mph, but what if it gets a 150% speed boost?
I'm sure there are alot of engineers here that can aid us in this arguement...
sirloin
11-22-2007, 12:24 AM
I'm sure there are alot of engineers here that can aid us in this argument...I'm one of them. Well, a senior engineering student, but close enough.
I'll address each of the problems you brought up, 1 by 1.
1-What we're talking about is a coaster with the ability to sustain speeds over 100 mph for about 30 seconds, AT LEAST....
Easy as pie. Bigger elements are all that are needed. Heck, Kingda Ka blazes over the crest of that 13-story hill, and the train does it without any problems. Heck, if SFGAdv had more space, do you have any idea what kind of airtime you'd sustain over that hill? You get a nice brief taste of it, and if it were sustained, it would be legendary. However, what technology was needed to make that happen? Nothing that hasn't been around for several decades already. Kingda Ka could easily have done several elements. SFGAdv just didn't have the money or space to do it.
2-What about the stress on on the track and the trains?
I can think of several Schwartzkopf coasters with stresses far worse than any Intamin out there, and the Schwartzies are smaller. You see, just because an element is bigger and a train is going faster does not mean the stress will be higher. It's a combination of the two. For instance, say Mantis's first loop was only as big as one of the loops on Shock Wave at Six Flags Over Texas. The maneuver is too sharp, and the stresses and forces would be unbelievable. Now, what if you were to increase the size of Mantis's first loop to that of the first loop on Riddler's Revenge? You'd have a much tamer loop than Mantis already has.
Basically, some of the smallest coasters you can think of have far more powerful forces than any B&M or Intamin in existence.
3-What about the forces on the rider?
Already addressed above. It's not the size or the speed alone, it's the combination of the two, and it would be extremely easy to create mild forces instead of insane ones.
4-What about the safety issues?
Hardly any different than they are on any other roller coasters. Yeah, getting hit in the face with a bird at 100 mph will hurt more than it does at 50 mph, but it's not like the risk is any greater on bigger coasters than it is on small coasters.
5-What about objects on the track?
The odds of that happening are absurd, and again, size plays no part in increasing the risk of having objects on the track. Yeah, it'll cause more damage at 100 mph than it will at 50, but I doubt coaster designers worry about what'll happen if Bob the mechanic leaves his wrench on the track.
6-What about restraints?
See Kingda Ka. Those things work just fine. Again, it's all forces my friend. 0 g's is 0 g's at 50 mh and it's 0g at 200 mph. The stresses on the restraints won't be any different.
7-What about the wheel compounds?
Won't be any different than the compounds you see on Kingda Ka or TTD, or any rocket for that matter.
8-What about friction?
There are two frictional forces you've got to worry about: the friction between track and train, and air resistance (which is essentially a glorified frictional force, commonly known as drag). The first frictional force (track and train) wouldn't be any different than it already is on Kingda Ka or TTD. It's dependent on the downforce (a combination of the weight of the train and the actual shape of it, which may result in an increase in the downward force) and the coefficient of friction pertaining to the wheel compound and the track (basically, the coefficient for polyurethane/nylon on steel). Changes to the aerodynamics of the train can result in a lower-than-expected downforce or a higher-than-expected downforce, depending on what you want. Also, you can easily design a lighter train than, say, that of Kingda Ka.
As far as the air resistance, again, just tweak the aerodynamics of the train. No biggie.
9-And what if an unforseen problem occurs while people are onboard this super-coaster?
That's what the safety systems that have been in place forever are for. Nothing changes. There certainly won't be any unforseen problems, though, that aren't already accounted for in rides such as Kingda Ka or Top Thrill Dragster. It's not like a 300-foot loop is any more at risk for unforseen problems than the loop on Mantis.
10-It's not as easy as just super-sizing the elements
Yeah, it is.
Youhow2
11-22-2007, 02:44 AM
hmm okay... Super-sizing elements on a extremely fast roller coaster will do the job just fine... that's like taking a wooden house and saying too make it 10 times the size it already is, just make all the beams bigger... When things get big, like the possible strata-looper were talking about, things change... It's the small things you wouldnt even consider, or otherwise care about when build something smaller. TTD and KK just scratch the surface of what is possible with the HLS. as I said before, when you drag things out, and make them bigger, things change all around. The little tiny thing you take for granted and blow off like it's no big deal, because "It's the same thing" changes when you add more speed and height...
Example:
take your average ghetto-fair 1 loop rollercoaster, compare that to a decent B&M...Think of all the changes...Not much eh? Now take imagine TTD, then imagine a HLS strata-looper with 4 inversions, all within 100 ft of the first, which is about 475 ft tall perhaps. what would they have to change from the TTD design to make this thing possible?
What your telling me, they could take the train from TTD or KK, and rotate them with any other HLS type roller coaster, because they all are the same, some are just bigger than the others...they could rotate the ride system from rita, or xcel to kk, because they are the same... Heck, your even saying that I could your saying that kanonnen's(or however you spell it) train could go on TTD's because it is all the same...
The HLS has been designed....In fact they have several rides at several parks that use the HLS. Your telling me, If I wanted to make 800 foot tall, top-hat coaster, the only thing that would vary is how big the track is, and how fast it goes...
^I think this is the best example....
And I like how you didnt respond to my popsicle stick comment....
Mike T
11-22-2007, 04:05 AM
You need to realize that terminal velocity is around 120 miles per hour, and no matter how high your roller coaster is, if you are going to add inversions after that initial 800 foot tall hill, you still only have 120 miles per hour to work with, regardless of the circumstances.
In regards to Top Thrill Dragster, regardless of how long it sustains its 120 mile per hour velocity, the only things that need to be compensated for is the radius for which the track bends, to account for the forces that the train is going to be pursuing. As for switching trains, thats depended upon how a long a train can actually be before it becomes to offset by things like speed and force value. Speedmonster which uses 3 cars per train isn't going to be able to navigate Storm Runner or even Xcelerators' track because there isn't enough length available for it to make it through some of those elements. Sure they can always adjust the speed of the launch, but from what you are telling me, we have to leave the ride's variables the same, and only rotate the trains. But regardless of that, the trains aren't really designed much differently from each other. I don't know why anybody would put less effort into making a train that is going to travel 60 mph than you would in one that goes 120. Thats design inconsistency and it really doesn't play out that way with today's rides. Because we have the technology to go 150 mph and 500 feet high, there isn't really any reasons to half-bake a ride's design because it doesn't meet those credentials...
Terminal velocity of a single human figure may be 120 mph, but the terminal velocity you're worried about with a coaster is that of the coaster trian which can be drastically higher if the train is aerodynamic.
sirloin
11-22-2007, 12:09 PM
Youhow2, you really have no concept of engineering, do you. Yes, you'll need to alter the support structure. You need one sturdy enough to withstand the forces of the winds, etc., at higher altitudes. No biggie. Yeah, it'll cost you a bundle to build, but it's the same basic structural engineering as it has always been, just on a bigger scale.
And your analogy about taking a small, one-loop ghetto-fair coaster and a B&M and comparing that to two rockets is so flawed, I have trouble even acknowledging it. A Pinfari to a B&M is not the same as one rocket to another. Rockets all use the same basic technology, just at varying altitudes.
And no, I'm not saying you can swap out trains. As Mike pointed out, sometimes you need longer trains and sometimes you need shorter ones. You won't be putting 5-car trains on Maverick because of the sharpness of that first drop and some of the other maneuvers. Small trains don't quite have the momentum of larger ones. That doesn't make the technology on the trains different (among rockets, that is, as Maverick trains will have different mechanisms for the different launch method). It just means the trains are different.
Again, the differences you need to account for don't require any new technology. It simply requires the money, the space, and the willpower, and right now, nobody has all 3.
Also, I believe Mr. FX-1 is correct. You can easily raise that terminal velocity by altering the aerodynamics. If an F/A-18E falls out of the sky with both of it's engines out, it'll come down at a much higher speed than 120 mph.
Mike T
11-22-2007, 12:14 PM
An object reaches terminal velocity when the resistance in motion that it creates (its drag force) is proportional to its speed. As an object increases its speed, so does its drag, and eventually those two variables equate, creating a stop in acceleration and the phenomena known as T.V. In the instance of a roller coaster, not only is the body of the train wider than a human being, but you've got a lot of friction running on those rails too. This is why rides like Dive Machines lose their speed quicker than say... an Intamin Giga coaster. But God bless them if they can get a roller coaster train to have a larger terminal velocity than a human...
sirloin
11-22-2007, 12:23 PM
I'm sure they could, and quite easily, too. I reckon TTD's trains could easily break 120 mph if Intamin wanted them to. They just didn't build a big-enough drop. Remember, if your drop is the same size as your climb, you aren't going to be going any faster than you were to begin with. You'll be going slower thanks to the frictional losses and the air resistance. Honestly, if Cedar Point were to dig a 20-foot trench at the exit of the top hat and increase the drop distance to 440 feet, it's quite probable that the train would break 120 mph. Heck, just take a look at your average human being and then look at the trains on Kingda Ka. That sleek nose design greatly reduces the air resistance on the train, making it quite possibly one of the more aerodynamic designs.
And I like your reference to Dive Machines. Those, along with inverts, are pretty much glorified airbrakes. Why do you think Cedar Point shuts down Raptor at lower wind speeds than Mantis? Aerodynamics.
And frankly, I sure as heck bet you that roller coaster trains are more aerodynamic than humans.
Mike T
11-22-2007, 12:32 PM
Indeed and thats what I was trying to say, only you do a little better of a job explaining it than I do thanks to those 4 years of hell they call Mech. Engineering ;). Yes, I understand that a human can get upwards of speeds of 175 miles per hour if they nose dive it out of an airplane, but thats at an acceleration of something like 9.4 meters per second squared, factoring the minimal resistance in air, the absence of friction and everything else. I just have a hard time conceiving in my mind that a roller coaster train can reach speeds at the same rate, accounting for all the variables that it has going against it...
Michael
11-22-2007, 08:34 PM
Why do you think Cedar Point shuts down Raptor at lower wind speeds than Mantis? Aerodynamics.
That was the reason Raptor valleyed last year :p
SnooSnoo
11-22-2007, 09:17 PM
^Last year.
Aerodynamics have something to do with it, along with the fact that the MCBR is HORRIBLY positioned.. as to make the chances of valleying much higher.
With no people on the train, that train is very light.. and with the E-W direction the MCBR faces.. which is what happened last year.. a very strong consistent wind could cause it to valley.
theRock-steel
11-29-2007, 06:55 AM
As they say, you're not suppose to compare apples to oranges. That's the problem with this topic. After spending an hour on rollercoasterdatabase.com, I can't find too many Intamin coasters that have anything in common with B&M rides. B&M has only one launch and nothing above 300ft. Intamin has only a handful of inverted and no floorless or flying. The three Ride Of Steel's are similar to Apollo's Chariot, Goliath, Nitro, Raging Bull, etc.. B&M seems to have more hypers, but Ride Of Steel at SF NE is supposed to be the best in the world. So who "wins" ? The only other direct comparison we can make is between each manufactures' stand up coasters. Because I'm so tall, all these rides are painful. I'm not the best one to ask about them then.
One last question. Do you prefer tall hills with big drops and air-time or launch coasters with great speed ? Those seem to be the characteristics of these builders' signature rides.
jolash
11-29-2007, 07:35 AM
I think rock-steel hit the nail on the head with this. But at the same time, reitterating(sp?) what we've settled on several times before.
... I can't find too many Intamin coasters that have anything in common with B&M rides. B&M has only one launch and nothing above 300ft. Intamin has only a handful of inverted and no floorless or flying. The three Ride Of Steel's are similar to Apollo's Chariot, Goliath, Nitro, Raging Bull, etc.. B&M seems to have more hypers, but Ride Of Steel at SF NE is supposed to be the best in the world. So who "wins" ?...
One last question. Do you prefer tall hills with big drops and air-time or launch coasters with great speed ? Those seem to be the characteristics of these builders' signature rides.
Eh, not so much. It's hard to pinpoint the "signature" rides or models of each company. If you really had to pick a highlight ride, B&M has Kumba on the cover of their catalog, as well as a full page spread of the ride's layout inside. Clearly the company thinks highly of the ride. As for Intamin, it's too difficult to pick one ride or model, as they have so many. SROS is often claimed to be the greatest steel ride on earth, although I've never seen Intamin advertising the ride or doing anything to associate themselves with the ride. Of course, Intamin has been building accelerators left and right over the past couple of years, but I wouldn't call that their "signature ride", as it's more of a building trend, and they're just building what parks want.
theRock-steel
11-30-2007, 11:49 PM
^^ How about if I use the term "best known rides" instead of "signature". For B&M I guess that would be any of their hypers (Apollo's Chariot, Goliath, Nitro, etc.). I agree, for Intamin no single ride could represent them. Maybe anything at CP would work (Maverick, Millennium Force, Top Thrill Dragster, etc.). Those are completely different rides, however.
rollercoasterfreek
12-02-2007, 01:02 AM
Bolliger and Mabillard rides are much more smoother to me. I know Intamin seems to have more signature rides but I like B&M's much more because of the quality in smoothness.
IntaminFan007
12-21-2007, 11:38 PM
B&M seems smoother, but Intamin has a more wild, and IMO, better ride. Just look at Maverick. The turn transitions are just insane, the airtime hills are incredible. I do not know why people think that Maverick is not smooth. It is smooth in some ways, and slightly rough in others. Look at Thunderhead, there is roughness, but it is very enjoyable because the bumps are very small. This is the same as Maverick (although it is #1 IMO for smoothness). This also applies to many other Intamin coasters I have been on. Since B&M have not made any woodies, I cannot compare Intamin's with B&M, but if B&M made woodies, they would not be as smooth (or nearly as good) as Intamin any day.
chris
12-22-2007, 11:57 PM
Ever since 2005 B&Ms have been as smooth as butter. Now they are starting to push the limits. Look at Behemoth, new train layouts. Also it is the second tallest. The only thing is that B&M needs to get a new design and maybe a new inversion. Im going with B&M hear.
p0tat0
12-28-2007, 05:04 AM
Riddler's revenge was surprisingly rough last time I rode it. I was kinda shocked at that. Still they seem to have more reliable and smooth coasters of course, but intamin designs, like storm runner! Not to mention expedition geforce :). I'd go with intamin.
krinkels15600
12-29-2007, 01:08 PM
I will go with B&M, because I've always found that their coasters were smooth and fun. Intamin just sometimes exagerates to my eyes. I rode El Toro this summer and I didn't even enjoy it that much: The airtime spots were too extreme and... it was overall a little bit excessive to me.
Mr.Wood
12-30-2007, 01:49 PM
I've enjoyed reading all of you guys insides into B&M and Intaman. I'm new to all this coaster riding stuff. I have always been too scared to ride them. As my son is getting older I don't want him to be scared so I have been trying to suck it up and try them.I rode Cyclone (Cont Island) when I was 13 and I thought I was gonna die.As of one year ago the most intense coaster I have been on is Space Mt. In 07 my son and I have done Batman SSMM and Silver Bullet KBF both B&M rides. Now coming from a guy who is trying NOT to be a woooosie. Those coasters were pretty damn intense to me but now that I've been riding them for a few months I'm looking to do Xcelerator.I'm still scared but now I have my 14 year old son pushing me. Remember the general public just ride these rides once a year or once every few years and I would say smooth is the way to go. I would still say ( I know this is an B&M-vs-Intamin forum) that Ghost Rider kicks your ***.
tycooner55
12-30-2007, 02:14 PM
I will go with B&M, because I've always found that their coasters were smooth and fun. Intamin just sometimes exagerates to my eyes. I rode El Toro this summer and I didn't even enjoy it that much: The airtime spots were too extreme and... it was overall a little bit excessive to me.
Some people here might want to hurt you for not liking El Toro. :p
Michael
12-30-2007, 04:13 PM
The airtime spots were too extreme and... it was overall a little bit excessive to me.
*shudders*
Too much airtime? Now I never thought I'd hear that! :p
I have to say, I like B&M and Intamin equally. I respect their styles and quirks, and they both are great manufacturers. I just happened to be named after the manufacturer of my favorite coaster, but I still like B&M's just as much :)
apsterling
12-30-2007, 07:21 PM
I don't think he was saying too much, just too extreme (EG, too ejector-esque).
I like B&M ATM, just because their rides are less forced. A few months from now, though, I might think something completely different.
Maybe Intamin has to make their rides extremely forceful and crazy (and therefore unreliable) because they can't match B&M with a classic coaster. Ride Colossus at Thorpe Park for proof of that. So, while Intamin's crazy innovations are seen as awesome, maybe they are the only way Intamin can stay up at the top with B&M.
EmperorNorton
02-02-2008, 04:40 PM
I agree. I love Intamin Launch coasters, but B&M coasters are classic and more reliable. If a park bought a 12 million dollar B&M coaster over a 12 mil Intamin coaster, the B&M would get them their money back faster and would be an overall better ride.
Michael
02-02-2008, 06:01 PM
Can't we have both? I mean they both have their faults, and their positives. Why compare? We know they both are two of the greatest companies out there. :cool:
....Because that is the purpose of this thread...
Michael
02-02-2008, 06:27 PM
^Just stating an opinion, I wasn't making a suggestion :rolleyes: There's a difference.
They both kick ***, period :p That's my view.
Batman: The Member
02-02-2008, 06:57 PM
I am going to have to say B&M. They have made so many great coasters like Batman: The Ride, Silver Bullet and so on.
thedeadfrog
02-02-2008, 06:58 PM
One day...B&tamin...It will be the best coaster producing company the world has ever seen...
tycooner55
02-02-2008, 11:20 PM
One day...B&tamin...It will be the best coaster producing company the world has ever seen...
I hope not. The competition between the two companies is what pushes them to make innovative coasters.
Youhow2
02-03-2008, 01:15 AM
I wanna see what arrow and B&M can do together personally...
tycooner55
02-03-2008, 12:09 PM
^ Like a B&M version of X?
krinkels15600
02-25-2008, 10:21 PM
Some people here might want to hurt you for not liking El Toro. :p
Lol shure:laugh: Airtime, intensity, El and Toro are four words intamin fanboys can't live without of
p0tat0
02-25-2008, 10:24 PM
^^ That would be interesting to see, but it seems like they have opposing views on their rides.
ArrowOwnzU
02-26-2008, 12:23 AM
One day...B&tamin...It will be the best coaster producing company the world has ever seen...
That's already happened. They made Flashback.
Michael
02-26-2008, 12:25 AM
That's already happened. They made Flashback.
That was Intamin and Giovanola :wink2:
Thrill Reconnoiter
02-26-2008, 12:31 AM
That was Intamin and Giovanola :wink2:
At least Giovanola was smart enough to take B&M's designs and utilize them in their future rides (look at Goliath/Titan and Anaconda's influences), Intamin never did.
ArrowOwnzU
02-26-2008, 04:38 AM
The Bolliger and Mabillard of B&M worked for Intamin. http://www.rcdb.com/ir.htm?order=15&contact=8&page=5
http://www.rcdb.com/ig189.htm?picture=11
http://www.rcdb.com/ig6.htm?picture=2
Here's some of their work. Also, compare the trains, track and supports to that of Iron Wolf.
Thrill Reconnoiter
02-26-2008, 06:33 PM
The Bolliger and Mabillard of B&M worked for Intamin. http://www.rcdb.com/ir.htm?order=15&contact=8&page=5
http://www.rcdb.com/ig189.htm?picture=11
http://www.rcdb.com/ig6.htm?picture=2
Here's some of their work. Also, compare the trains, track and supports to that of Iron Wolf.
All of those are subcontracted to Giovanola....or a Giovanola with Intamin's name stamped on the side.
You won't find an Intamin without the Giovanola name that has a strong B&M influence, but you will find a Giovanola without the Intamin name that has a strong B&M influence.
upfrontjwash
03-02-2008, 12:23 AM
B&m All The Way!!!!!!!
Jumpman23
03-02-2008, 02:57 AM
^ You might want to support your statement there man before you get bashed.
upfrontjwash
03-02-2008, 12:50 PM
They made my favorite rides.
Batman: The Ride
Tatsu Also one ride that i cant wait to ride.
Behemoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behemoth_%28roller_coaster%29) OH YEAH!!!!!!
EDIT: Please do not post photos without a link to the site they came from.
rollercoasterfreek
03-02-2008, 03:01 PM
^Only three rides? I don't see a reason to say ALL the way with that.
The reason I like B&M is because of the smoothness on the ride. I won't say that Intamin is terrible because I do like the V2 ride from SFDK they make out here. Since they also make famous rides like Kingda Ka, El Toro etc. I do respect them for that.
upfrontjwash
03-02-2008, 06:56 PM
your right their rides are very smooth. i just choose those because they were one's that i like. their are many other rides that they make and have made that are great as well.
Such as the rides on this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Bolliger_%26_Mabillard_roller_coasters
^ If I remember correctly, you were the one who wanted SFMM to build a TTD clone, which was an Intamin last time I checked. :roll_eyes:
upfrontjwash
03-02-2008, 09:31 PM
^ If I remember correctly, you were the one who wanted SFMM to build a TTD clone, which happens to be an Intamin. :roll_eyes:
Man you got me on that one i do love that TTD lol, im not even going to lie to you.
I still love B&M though, but i respect Intamin for that one though.:stick_tongue:
^ What about Kingda Ka too?
Jumpman23
03-02-2008, 09:49 PM
^^ Ahh what about Stealth while were at it.
upfrontjwash
03-02-2008, 09:54 PM
What about Kingda Ka too?
that ride is a beast among coasters true enough, but B&M has built some of the smoothes giants around.
Behemoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behemoth_%28roller_coaster%29)
Goliath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath_%28Six_Flags_Fiesta_Texas%29)
Nitro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitro_%28roller_coaster%29)
Raging Bull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raging_Bull_%28roller_coaster%29)YES, they dont have the size of kinda ka, and TTD, but i can safely say they have never had roll back problems.
"http://www.youtube.com/v/eL2jnfUXWVg"
"http://www.youtube.com/v/oNYzj6tw7XA"
:w00t:
so its safe to say that you like intamin over B&M?:tongue:
so its safe to say that you like intamin over B&M?:tongue:
Why yes it sure is. (http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/community/showpost.php?p=2989&postcount=19)
upfrontjwash
03-02-2008, 10:00 PM
:stick_tongue:I didn't notice.
you see the vids of the two beast at work, scary isn't it.:scared:lol
coastermatt
03-10-2008, 02:23 AM
I'd gotta go with B&M, only because they have less down-time...
Dietcokevan
03-10-2008, 11:39 AM
I agree with VekoMatt! B&M has less down time! But I haven't been on any good Intamins either. Xcelerator was the Intamin I rode. =(
coastermatt
03-10-2008, 09:02 PM
What are you talking about? Xcelerator is a great ride, you don't like it cause you think your unsafe from lap restraints. And welcome to RCPro, I can't boss you around here, since I'm not a mod here, unlike on The Blab...your lucky. :P
rollercoasterfreek
03-11-2008, 12:17 AM
^ I forgot about the less downtime factor! Waiting is alot shorter when I have compared riding an Intamin.
Dietcokevan
03-11-2008, 01:50 PM
Lol Vekomatt, I know that Xcelerator is a great ride, but I mean there are even better Intamins out there :p Like for example Kingda Ka, TTD, Millenium Force, Maverick, V2/Wicked Twister, Volcano: The Blast Coaster, and many many more, what I was trying to say was there are better Intamins out there.
Yes the lapbars are safe but I would feel safer with the OTSR, lets just drop that subject:smile:.
Brandon728
03-11-2008, 05:22 PM
I think I like B&M better. They have stronger forces on their coasters to me. Other than being shaken.
Jumpman23
03-11-2008, 05:25 PM
^ I disagree because I think Intamin produces more rides with more extreme forces.
tacoking
04-02-2008, 06:18 PM
I have to go B&M. Just look at my top ten...I believe seven of them are B&M's.
Though living in a B&M heavy state (relatively speaking) doesn't really help that, I guess.
Brandon728
04-03-2008, 01:39 PM
^ I disagree because I think Intamin produces more rides with more extreme forces.
I meant stronger forces with airtime. But positive Gs go all to Intamin. IMO
Voyage100
04-05-2008, 08:51 AM
I have had a feeling that Intamin tends to positive G's, but so comfy ridings. B&M tends to the unique inversions.
Jumpman23
04-05-2008, 02:47 PM
I have had a feeling that Intamin tends to positive G's, but so comfy ridings. B&M tends to the unique inversions.
Unique inversions? every inversion that B&M has, Intamin has done them to, hell Intamin even has a Flying snake dive.
I'm pretty sure Intamin has never done a Pretzel Loop. And no, a Norweigan Loop is not the same thing.
Jumpman23
04-05-2008, 02:52 PM
So how are they not the same, so now a corkscrew on Colossus is not the samee as a coekscrew on Kraken?
I'm pretty sure he's talking about inversions like Sea Serpent, Dive Loop, Immelman, etc. Not generic elements like a corkscrew.
So how are they not the same, so now a corkscrew on Colossus is not the samee as a coekscrew on Kraken?
http://cache.rcdb.com/pictures/picmax/p15568.jpg
Pretzel Loop
http://cache.rcdb.com/pictures/picmax/p14344.jpg
Norwegian Loop.
A Norwegian loops is more of a Dive Loop connected with an immelman, while a Pretzel Loop is a better example of a continuous inversion. And, if they were the same inversion they would have the same name - would they not?
Both pictures supplied by RCDB.
Also - the Pretzel Loop came before the Norwegian Loop. Therefore making the Pretzel Loop unique until Intamin "copied" it.
ArrowOwnzU
04-06-2008, 05:15 PM
For the record.
http://www.coasterglobe.com/features/history-inversion/moonsault.jpg
ORIGINAL Pretzel Loop (photo taken from coasterglobe.com)
http://cache.rcdb.com/pictures/picmax/p15568.jpg
Pretzel Loop part 2 the revenge.
http://cache.rcdb.com/pictures/picmax/p14344.jpg
That thing.
Wow, that one actually LOOKS like a pretzel! Nice!
chris
04-06-2008, 11:02 PM
http://www.coasterglobe.com/features/history-inversion/moonsault.jpg
Whats the name of this coaster?
http://www.coasterglobe.com/features/history-inversion/moonsault.jpg
Whats the name of this coaster?
It was Moonsault Scramble (http://rcdb.com/id1292.htm) at Fuji-Q Highlands, however it was taken out of operation in the year 2000.
-Alex
Brandon
04-06-2008, 11:24 PM
Wow, that one actually LOOKS like a pretzel! Nice!
Well, Jake, after all, there is a reason why RCDB lists it as a Pretzel Knot... :stick_tongue:
But it actually looks a lot like a pretzel. Where as the pretzel loop doesn't resemble a pretzel all that much!
Voyage100
04-12-2008, 08:03 PM
There was a rumor as, Moonsault Scramble had packed so many postive g's: it was really close to 6.5, sort of a breaking point that we are able to tolerate. That Pretzel loop actually pulled the most intense force out, when the ride went hit the bottom of that element.
Brandon728
04-12-2008, 10:59 PM
^The bottom does look tightly curved. Does anyone know the maximum G-force a human can withstand? I know it probably varies individually, but is there like an average?
It depends how long it lasts. Coasters usually only go up to around 4G's though.
We humans can withstand very high G’s but it all depends for how long do we withstand them! People have survived high G’s in accidents and plane crashes (some times up to friction of second with 80 G’s). The human tolerances depend on the size of the g-force, its length, time, direction, and the person’s posture. In addition g-tolerance is often trainable; and there is also considerable variation in innate ability between individuals.
High G for long period are experienced by aviators (stunt pilots and so.) 10 – 12 G’s for a few seconds, and astronauts during liftoff (its lower G’s for longer periods)
And us during a cough (3.5 g) and during a sneeze (2.9 g)
Lethal car accidents are usually around 30 – 60 G’s
Taken from a knowledgeable user at Yedda (http://yedda.com/questions/G_force_1494157172515/)
Brandon728
04-13-2008, 05:33 PM
It depends how long it lasts. Coasters usually only go up to around 4G's though.
Taken from a knowledgeable user at Yedda (http://yedda.com/questions/G_force_1494157172515/)
Wow, I never would have thought people could live through such high Gs. Haha, or that we experience Gs when we cough and sneeze :laugh:
cornman
04-17-2008, 08:06 PM
Wow, I never would have thought people could live through such high Gs. Haha, or that we experience Gs when we cough and sneeze :laugh:
All G-force is, is acceleration and you experience it whenever you start moving or stop moving or change direction, and 4 G's is not that high at all, fighter pilots are trained to stay conscious at up to 9 G's.
sirloin
04-17-2008, 10:41 PM
They also have g-suits to help them. I highly doubt they could take it without the suit.
tacoking
04-17-2008, 11:03 PM
For them it's all in the suits. One of the demos I saw at the airshow the other week had a guy pulling 12 G's in most of his moves.
Voyage100
04-19-2008, 09:47 PM
Just wondering but how many g's do B&M loopers pull, when going up through the first vertical loop at the top speed? It doesn't look like pulling up to 4 or more g's, as long as I am giving a try to go on B&M looper on the coaster simulation. Barely 3g's I guess.
coastermatt
04-19-2008, 11:28 PM
^Could you be more specific? Like, which B&M model?
Just wondering but how many g's do B&M loopers pull, when going up through the first vertical loop at the top speed? It doesn't look like pulling up to 4 or more g's, as long as I am giving a try to go on B&M looper on the coaster simulation. Barely 3g's I guess.Well, the top speed happens at the bottom of the loop, and I'd say depending on the model it most likely ranges from 2.5-3.5. That's just an estimation, though.
Patrick
04-24-2008, 12:21 PM
I prefer B&M. Their coasters are all of brilliant quality, an example of this is Nemesis at Alton Towers which is still smooth after 14 years of operation. When you're riding a B&M, You can tell it's fantastic quality.
Intamin build the better 'airtime' based coasters, Whereas B&M build the better 'inversion' based coasters. I've also had to go through the pain riding Colossus at Thorpe Park, One of the worst coasters I've ever been on (it was rougher than some of the SLCs and Pinfari Loopers I've ridden)
I've only ridden one amazing Intamin coaster (Expedition GeForce) but the B&Ms I've been on have all been great.
Also, If B&M builds a bad coaster (Like Silver Bullet) it's not going to be as bad as Intamin's bad ones like Colossus.
ArrowOwnzU
04-27-2008, 06:39 PM
Silver Bullet is by no means a bad coaster.
^ Agreed. It isn't great, but honestly, there's something wrong with you if you're complaining about a smooth B&M.
ArrowOwnzU
04-28-2008, 01:22 AM
It's not super intense like batman or top gun at pga (I know Im using the old names), but its so much fun. The overbank has an amazing floating sensation, the zero g is perfect and the helix always makes me gray out. And to be honest, I would probably rather have Silver Bullet than Talon or Patriot.
Dietcokevan
04-28-2008, 12:35 PM
Also, If B&M builds a bad coaster (Like Silver Bullet) it's not going to be as bad as Intamin's bad ones like Colossus.
Ummm.... Silver Bullet might not be the best B&M out there, but it still is very smooth and fun!
You know, I think we've all been proving his point. Even B&M's "bad" coasters, are good!
Youhow2
04-28-2008, 04:35 PM
B&M wins,woo!
coasterfan6051
04-28-2008, 10:03 PM
I haven't been on any really good B&M's. I've only been on Mantis, Raptor and Mind Erasor at Darien Lake so my B&M count is very limited. Most of the Intamins I've been on are my favorites so Intamin gets my vote.
^ Mind Eraser is not a B&M. It's a Vekoma.
Voyage100
05-03-2008, 09:47 AM
Then I would say 'What about Tornado, which looks like an Intamin's only suspended looper? I wonder if it's a smooth ride or not, since it was made by Intamin.'
Haunt-Freak
05-03-2008, 01:23 PM
I love Silver Bullet. Best B&M I've ridden.
^ I'm sorry, that must be awful for you.
Steelinwood
05-03-2008, 04:37 PM
Here is the age old debate, wich is better B&M or Intamin A.G.! But I must declare that I love B&M way better, they are just so nice and well put together, i'de ride one anyday!
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