U.S. Senator Sherrod Brown Sends Message To Cedar Fair: Save The Dipper

[Brandon]

Senator to Cedar Fair: Save the Dipper

By JANET NGUYEN (janetnguyen@sanduskyregister.com) | Tuesday December 04 2007, 8:25am
SANDUSKY

http://images.townnews.com/sanduskyregister.com/content/articles/2007/12/05/front/507529.jpg


U.S. Sen. Sherrod Brown is urging Cedar Fair officials to preserve a piece of roller coaster history.

Last month Brown, D-Ohio, addressed a letter to Cedar Fair chairman, president and chief executive officer Dick Kinzel asking the company to develop a plan for Geauga Lake's historic wooden roller coaster, The Big Dipper. In the letter Brown said he hopes company officials will keep the ride at its current location or have it moved to another site where it can continue to operate.

"Such an important and rare piece of Ohio and amusement park history deserves the utmost consideration as Cedar Fair develops plans for theproperty," Brown wrote.

In September, Cedar Fair officials announced they were shutting down Geauga Lake & Wildwater Kingdom's amusement park side because of low ticket sales.

The company said it plans to concentrate exclusively on waterpark operations next year. The waterpark will open May 24 for the 2008 season.

Richard Munch, historian for the American Coaster Enthusiasts group, said Brown's letter is good news.

"The word is getting out that this should be saved," he said.

Munch said the group had heard a few months ahead of time that Geauga Lake would close its amusement park. When the news was announced, the coaster enthusiasts became active. The group reached out to local developersinterested in keeping the historic wooden coaster and building a mixed-use project around it. The 500-acre tract of land is also up for sale.

Munch, who is also a board member for the National Roller Coaster Museum and Archives, referred to several mixed-use developments with rides and attractions that have been successful.

In response to the senator's letter, Cedar Fair spokeswoman Stacy Frole said nothing has changed. The Big Dipper and two other roller coasters are listed for sale.

"We currently have the Big Dipper up for sale. Any interested party has the opportunity to buy those assets," she said. "We're doing every effort to move these rides to other locations where they might have value."

Frole also said if the rides don't sell, they will be auctioned.

Kinzel was out of town on business Wednesday and could not be reached for comment.

Brown's letter urged Cedar Fair officials to preserve the 82-year-old wooden coaster.

"Ideally, keeping The Big Dipper in its Aurora, Ohio, home would be preferable -- perhaps by including the coaster as part of a mixed-use retail and amusement complex or as part of a classic amusement park museum. However, as Cedar Fair makes final decisions on the future of the Dipper, I strongly urge against destroying or scrapping this unique piece of Buckeye State history," Brown wrote.

Munch said the ride has played a major role in many people's lives, and he hopes it can continue providing fond memories for many more years.

"This is for Ohio. This isn't for me," he said. "Something has to be saved from this site. It's important to keep history, because once it's gone -- it's gone."

The historic coaster had two previous identities before it became known as The Big Dipper. It first opened as the Sky Rocket in 1925 and was renamed Clipper in the late 1940s. In 1969, the name changed to the Big Dipper. The wooden ride is a John Miller coaster and is only one of 13 coasters of its kind left in the world. Miller was a prolific inventor in the early 1900s who had more than 100 patents and designed many safety devices still used in today's roller coasters.
http://www.sanduskyregister.com/articles/2007/12/05/front/507529.txt

[Dan]

This is great, I'm glad to see someone with power standing up for our beloved coasters. John Miller is a legend in my eyes, and I think parks ought to keep that legend alive.

[jolash]

I'm glad to see we have a coaster fan in the capitol :D

[ArrowOwnzU]

This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. I mean, its old but there really isn't any reason to save it other than its old. And shouldn't a senator have something better to do than save a ride?

[jolash]

That's pretty ignorant. It's a piece of American history.


The historic coaster had two previous identities before it became known as The Big Dipper. It first opened as the Sky Rocket in 1925 and was renamed Clipper in the late 1940s. In 1969, the name changed to the Big Dipper. The wooden ride is a John Miller coaster and is only one of 13 coasters of its kind left in the world. Miller was a prolific inventor in the early 1900s who had more than 100 patents and designed many safety devices still used in today's roller coasters.

[Mike T]

This is exciting. I remember riding this coaster with my grandpa back in 98', and when it was announced in September that the park was closing, it left a lump in my throat. Being able to ride a roller coaster with your Grandpa is really really cool, especially when your parents and siblings don't like them very much. Its something I'll never forget and I'm very happy that a fighting effort is being made to preserve such an historic ride.

[Dan]

This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. I mean, its old but there really isn't any reason to save it other than its old. And shouldn't a senator have something better to do than save a ride?
It's a piece of history. Just like old buildings are restored, and old airplanes, so should old coasters.

[Jake]

It's a piece of history. Just like old buildings are restored, and old airplanes, so should old coasters.

Old buildings are often leveled, just saying.

In my opinion, even if the ride is saved, it wont be operating at Geauga Lake anymore. Therefore it must be moved, and at that point, they practically have to rebuild the ride anyway. And after all that is done, it's barely the same ride anymore. As far as I'm concerned, they can tear it down.

I agree with Arrow, doesn't this guy have anything better to do?

[Dan]

Old buildings are often leveled, just saying.And many older cities have laws that require the facades of old buildings to remain standing. Obviously not everything can be saved.




In my opinion, even if the ride is saved, it wont be operating at Geauga Lake anymore. Therefore it must be moved, and at that point, they practically have to rebuild the ride anyway. And after all that is done, it's barely the same ride anymore. As far as I'm concerned, they can tear it down.
Have you ever been on a ride before and after a ride was relocated? Neither have I, so I can't prove you wrong, but your opinion has no backing. I'm not sure how they relocate rides exactly, but I wouldn't say it becomes a new ride altogether.



I agree with Arrow, doesn't this guy have anything better to do?It's Ohio, it isn't like there is a lot to deal with every day :p

[Jake]

Obviously not everything can be saved.

Thank you, and goodnight.


Have you ever been on a ride before and after a ride was relocated? Neither have I, so I can't prove you wrong, but your opinion has no backing. I'm not sure how they relocate rides exactly, but I wouldn't say it becomes a new ride altogether.

Your right, I haven't. But I do know that when a wooden coaster is relocating a LOT of the wood needs to be replaced (ala Starliner). So, I stand by the fact that the ride is practically rebuilt when moved. Bear in mind that this only applies to wooden roller coasters, as steel is dismantled and moved much easier.


It's Ohio, it isn't like there is a lot to deal with every day :p

Too true, toooo true.

[Dan]

Thank you, and goodnight.
Not everything can be saved....but, we save what we can, and when an opportunity comes along like this, why not pounce no it?

[Jake]

Not everything can be saved....but, we save what we can, and when an opportunity comes along like this, why not pounce no it?

Because, as I already said, what good is saving it if it isn't even going to operate in the same state (not as in Ohio, as in the same way) it is now? It can't even operate at Geauga Lake, perhaps not even in Ohio. I'm just not seeing the relevance or the importance of this.

[Thrill Reconnoiter]

Because, as I already said, what good is saving it if it isn't even going to operate in the same state (not as in Ohio, as in the same way) it is now? It can't even operate at Geauga Lake, perhaps not even in Ohio. I'm just not seeing the relevance or the importance of this.
What's more important than that, the entire thing would have to be rebuilt (mostly from new material) like all the other relocated woodies. In essence, it's not even the same coaster anymore once they implement new technologies and modern trains. All it is, is a modern coaster with a classic layout.

[Dan]

Well, I still believe it's better than nothing.

[Thrill Reconnoiter]

When it can be preserved at the same site, I'm all for it. But the sad fact is, as soon as the wrecking ball comes in, any heritage that ride had is now gone. So much is lost when relocated.

[Sam]

As much as it is sad to see a classic coaster lost to the wrecking ball, the truth is that so much is lost during the relocation. Unless they were to rebuild it with all the original wood and no replacement parts, then maybe it would work. Otherwise, it would just be like any other woodie relocation. Us coaster enthusiasts would love to see it saved, but I just don't see how it's history can be preserved in the relocation at another park. In other words, if relocated, Big Dipper will end up as just another mid sized coaster with a new structure and no historical significance afterwards what so ever. If there were a way to operate it without the park around it (as a city attraction maybe), the ride would be perfectly preserved. Given the history of previous park closures and the fate of their coasters (think AstroWorld and the Texas Cyclone R.I.P.:(), I would put my money on the bet that the coaster will not be saved.

[Dan]

Does anyone know of any reading material about relocation procedures? I know next to nothing about what actually goes on.

[sirloin]

I definitely imagine that the trains would not be replaced. They can be saved in their current state. Same for many of the ride's systems. Really, the wood is the only thing getting replaced, and new wood would only make that ride better.

See Phoenix for a quality example of decent relocation.

[Thrill Reconnoiter]

The point is they aren't going to be "relocating" (I think "building" is a better term) the Sky Rocket of '25, they're going to be building the modern Big Dipper of '80, with the more modern trains and more modern control systems. Nothing is '25 about it except the design of the layout.

[Jman]

You guys are pretty ignorant to consider a relocation the 'death' of a classic ride. Has anyone considered what happened to the Rocket at Playland Park in San Antonio when it got relocated? Knoebels got their hands on the ride just as the park closed, and relocated it to Pennsylvania. Phoenix is now of even more historical importance then its previous life as the Rocket, and those who have ridden both even say the Phoenix beats out the Rocket by a landslide.

The death of a ride? No. Just a new start.

[rollercoasterfreek]

Some things are classic. I hope it can be saved.

[Jake]

You guys are pretty ignorant to consider a relocation the 'death' of a classic ride. Has anyone considered what happened to the Rocket at Playland Park in San Antonio when it got relocated? Knoebels got their hands on the ride just as the park closed, and relocated it to Pennsylvania. Phoenix is now of even more historical importance then its previous life as the Rocket, and those who have ridden both even say the Phoenix beats out the Rocket by a landslide.

The death of a ride? No. Just a new start.

Wow, I wonder how it got to be a better ride? Could it be that it was practically rebuilt, with all new wood? Wow, maybe if you had read all the posts you would know that! Or, perhaps if you had watched the Starliner re-construction, you would have seen that they practically "rebuilt" the ride as much as they "relocated" it.

So, honestly, if you aren't going to really read and take not of other people's posts, who's the ignorant one?

[Jman]

We'll, im certainly glad I took the time to re-register here.


I did, in fact read all of the posts in this thread, and even if all the wood was replaced, the Phoenix became a better ride and even became more historical in the process of relocation.

Tell me this-- Would you rather ride an okay ride in its original form, or a great ride with a few bits of wood replaced in the process? Every ride needs some love, and I can guarantee that a good amount of wood was replaced on the Big Dipper during its 80 years at GL, and there no doubt about that. So, Im just posing a question-- Is Big Dipper, as it stands where it was constructed 80 years ago, still in its out of the box, original state? Obviously not.

Why not do little work on the track an make it a better ride? If your trying to preserve its history, lots of wood has already been replaced. Whats a few more boards for the benefit of the ride?

[Jake]

We'll, im certainly glad I took the time to re-register here.

Yeah, me too.



I did, in fact read all of the posts in this thread, and even if all the wood was replaced, the Phoenix became a better ride and even became more historical in the process of relocation.

How did it become "more historical"? It's not even the same ride anymore.


Tell me this-- Would you rather ride an okay ride in its original form, or a great ride with a few bits of wood replaced in the process? Every ride needs some love, and I can guarantee that a good amount of wood was replaced on the Big Dipper during its 80 years at GL, and there no doubt about that. So, Im just posing a question-- Is Big Dipper, as it stands where it was constructed 80 years ago, still in its out of the box, original state? Obviously not.

Generally, I would prefer a smoother, and better ride. However, since this relocation is being done because the ride has historical significance.. It just wont be quite as historic when all the wood is new.

[sirloin]

Given the amount of retracking a wooden coaster gets, they're never historical, by your logic. However, if no redesigns are made to the layout and the cars still give that original feel, it remains historic. The Big Dipper trains don't need replaced. Yes, parts will get replaced, but you aren't altering the actual look, seating arrangement, or restraint setup. If you keep those, the ride is basically the same.

[Thrill Reconnoiter]

The Big Dipper trains don't need replaced. Yes, parts will get replaced, but you aren't altering the actual look, seating arrangement, or restraint setup. If you keep those, the ride is basically the same.
The original train(s) have already been replaced, that's the thing. So has the control systems and station as mentioned before.

If Dutch Wonderland built a clone of Giant Dipper, are they entitled to say "The Original Since 1925"? Same logic. Like before, I agree with Jake. It's generally just building a new ride with the old layout. I mean $8million on Starliner just to be able to say "The Original Since 1967"? There are lots of people who would've liked another wood installation...because they didn't preserve it, they just prolonged the memory.

[ArrowOwnzU]

Pardon my ignorance but there's nothing "historic" about this ride except that it used to be old. I agree with Ryan and Jake its not even the same ride anymore, maybe if it still ran with a handbrake in the station and original trains it would be, but its not. Also, please enlighten me, what piece of American (not amusement Park) history does this ride have anyway?

[sirloin]

Really, if they called it the original Big Dipper from 1925, who, besides us, is going to throw a hissy fit over it? The people of Cleveland viewed it as the Big Dipper from the '20s. Yeah, a little wood is different, but in their eyes, it's still the same ride. Obviously, if the ride was rebuilt entirely from scratch, it's not a relocation. Therefore, I think we can safely assume that when Phoenix got relocated, there had to be some parts of it left over from Texas, or again, it wouldn't have been a relocation.

Yeah, you might cry foul and go tell the Plain Dealer and all those other newspapers, "It's not the Big Dipper! It's a fake! BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!" To those Clevelanders, it's the same thing. Just because a piece or two gets replaced over time does not mean that it's a different ride. If the Clevelanders think it's all the same, then that's what really matters. Or even if the people in its new home region think it's the same thing, then that's what matters. Who is gonna cry foul over it? Will we see you, Shaun, and Jake out there telling the world it's a fraud? I doubt it.

[ArrowOwnzU]

Of course not, but that wasn't the point I was trying to get across. (I love debates)

[Dan]

A few questions...

When a ride gets re-tracked, do we consider it a new ride? And, what really makes a wooden coaster wooden? The support system, or the actual track?

[rollercoasterfreak91]

In my opinion, it's still the same ride unless it's torn down and rebuilt. And I think the track makes it wood or steel. Gemini at CP has wood supports, but it's still a steel coaster.

[Tom]

If it has the same original stats and original layout, it is the same ride, well that is how I see it.

A classic wooden coaster has wooden supports and wooden track. But now a modern day wooden coaster can have steel or wooden supports, and as long as the track is wooden it is a wooden coaster.

[Dan]

I wasn't looking for the actual answer to the questions. They were more of a 'think about it' sort of thing. If a ride can be retracked and still be the same ride, then a relocated ride should be considered the same ride.

[Tom]

I wasn't looking for the actual answer to the questions. They were more of a 'think about it' sort of thing. If a ride can be retracked and still be the same ride, then a relocated ride should be considered the same ride.


Misunderstood what you were asking, but I agree, a relocated ride is the same ride, since it was, well, relocated from its original location to a new one.

Would you consider Dominator to be a new ride now that it has been relocated? It is essentially the same thing.

[Thrill Reconnoiter]

Really, if they called it the original Big Dipper from 1925, who, besides us, is going to throw a hissy fit over it? The people of Cleveland viewed it as the Big Dipper from the '20s. Yeah, a little wood is different, but in their eyes, it's still the same ride. Obviously, if the ride was rebuilt entirely from scratch, it's not a relocation. Therefore, I think we can safely assume that when Phoenix got relocated, there had to be some parts of it left over from Texas, or again, it wouldn't have been a relocation.

Yeah, you might cry foul and go tell the Plain Dealer and all those other newspapers, "It's not the Big Dipper! It's a fake! BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!" To those Clevelanders, it's the same thing. Just because a piece or two gets replaced over time does not mean that it's a different ride. If the Clevelanders think it's all the same, then that's what really matters. Or even if the people in its new home region think it's the same thing, then that's what matters. Who is gonna cry foul over it? Will we see you, Shaun, and Jake out there telling the world it's a fraud? I doubt it.
SERIOUSLY?

-And I say that in bold caps for a reason. You act like people are in dire love of this coaster! If people were fascinated with its history, where were they all these years Geauga Lake was struggling? Apparently not caring about it. This is the real question. Don't blame CedarFair, blame everyone else.

Let's not forget Martin & Vleminckx has been trying to help sell this ride. Guess what? Apparently no one, or CedarFair, wants it. CedarFair shouldn't not be given the financial burden of a publicity stunt to make a Senator look good.

About the bit of it still being original, I'll still believe it's no longer the coaster of '25. Plain and Simple.

[sirloin]

It takes more than one coaster to make a northern Ohio park popular. Last I checked, removing the park's 2nd most popular coaster (X-Flight) is going to outweigh the popularity of the Big Dipper.

And yes, it would be little more than a publicity stunt to keep it. As for people not caring about Geauga Lake, well, if you had to watch your park's management feed you lines that big things were on the way as they removed every ride you ever loved, you probably wouldn't be too keen on supporting them, either. In the end, I hold that Cedar Fair is to blame, regardless of what people try and say about SF ruining the place. SF couldn't compete with CF given the customer service levels they maintained during their ownership, but CF knew that with the right customer service levels, GL was a force to be reckoned with. I think SF could've sustained 2 million plus if they treated those folks well. Under CF ownership, though, the park still competed with CP for numbers (because there's just not enough wealth in that area to do both), and in my opinion, GL was killed to save CP. But that's neither here nor there.

In the end, I'd like to see it saved, because it was one heck of a ride. If it isn't, it isn't, but I think CF has been pretty classless about the whole thing, and they owe their fans a little something for the terrible way they handled this whole situation.

Wait, now I'm being an enthusiast and not a businessman. Time for my reality check.

In the end, Big Dipper is a great ride, but I suppose people just figure that there are better things to spend their money on. If CF takes the Senator's advice, great. If not, well, CF isn't going to lose anymore popularity points than they already have with me. Again, I think they owe their loyal fans something, and CP needs some really good wood, but if they don't feel that way, that's their call.

[Mike T]

Its still a roller coaster any way you slice it or dice it. I can see where people are coming from when they could care less about the ride, but I'd be pretty happy to see this one saved in my own opinion. Its definately a decent ride, and being able to say that you rode something that your dead great grandparents rode on their first date is kind of an "attraction" so-to-speak in itself. Some people have emotional connections with things, and I think thats the situation thats going on with this matter. Yeah sometimes I feel like things would be better off if we just drove for the future and pummeled the past, but sometimes I think about it and I think it'd be a nice "gesture" to the state of Ohio to leave this coaster intact.

[Jman]

The point is that many ohionians (What is the proper terminology?) and that the public wont know weather or not any work was done at all. Its still the Big Dipper, and its still the same ride that people have memories of from the past 80 years, track work or not, host park or not.

Id love to see it moved/saved, but I don't think some random senator trying to win brownie points with the town of Aurora is going to change the mind of anyone in the Cedar Fair cooperation.

[Brandon]

I believe that Cedar Fair should take Senator Brown's advice and preserve the Big Dipper. Of course, it's Cedar Fair and knowing Kinzel, he'd rather buy another Intamin than preserve the Dipper, which is a bad call, that is if you have a passion for history, as I do. It's like Mike said. You tend to have a emotional connections with things your parents, grandparents who may have passed on, or great grandparents who may have passed on have experienced, whether it be eating at a old diner, going to a baseball game at a certain stadium, or in this case, riding a old, classic wooden roller coaster. Even though Big Dipper has had technological improvements made to it, it still is a piece of history, no matter if it has been retracked, or had pieces of wood structure replaced. That’s like saying that Matterhorn Bobsleds is not a piece of history, even though it is the world’s first tubular steel tracked coaster. I know for a fact that pieces of Matterhorn's track have been replaced during it's nearly 50 year existence, and it is much different now than it was back when it opened in 1959, both in theming and ride experience. So, I ask everyone, what is the difference here with the Big Dipper?

[Dan]

Of course, it's Cedar Fair and knowing Kinzel, he'd rather buy another Intamin than preserve the Dipper, which is a bad call, that is if you have a passion for history, as I do.
..of course, if you have a passion for history, you'll be sad if The Dipper is demolished (include me in that group). But, if you had to run a profit making business, why would you spend large amounts of money to move a ride that will be in the shadows of the newer, better ones? You'd buy another Intamin if you had to make the financially correct choice. Relocating coasters is expensive, and Cedar Fair can market a new ride more than they can a small old wooden coaster.

[Thrill Reconnoiter]

^That's the argument by some, history has already been lost in peoples eyes.

-------

I can't believe all the band-wagoners in this thread. Now that this ride's life is eminent, everyone wants to jump on and say "save it!" ...because it's the "noble" thing to do. Seriously, where were you [or the Senator] at to say, "Get out and support your local park!?" A year ago everyone would've been chastising Geauga for its horrible operations.

I'm sensing a little bit of hypocrisy in this thread.


being able to say that you rode something that your dead great grandparents rode on their first date is kind of an "attraction" so-to-speak in itself.
I remember having that convo where I mentioned my grandfather grew up riding Thunderbolt.

[Dan]

A year ago everyone would've been chastising Geauga for its horrible operations.You don't know what you have until you loose it.

[Mike T]

I remember having that convo where I mentioned my grandfather grew up riding Thunderbolt.

Yeah, its kind of cool to be able to experience something, rather than just hearing the old guys say "I remember when I was your age..." Its like you get to ride something thrilling, and get a history lesson all at the same time. :p



You don't know what you have until you loose it.

Indeed, although in some cases you tend to forget about things pretty quickly (Python, White Water Landing, Figment, just to name a few). But then again, all of those attractions were replaced with something. The thing that leaves me a bit weary is the fact that the ride wouldn't be replaced with something that I'd like, it'd probably turn into a Super Target or something lol.