View Full Version : Long Trains vs. Short
jolash
10-09-2007, 03:18 PM
Random question, but I was thinking about it. Intamin has been using the shorter trains on Maverick and now Fahrenheit, and even Kanonen, Storm Runner, Rita, etc. etc. B&M uses the short, 2-3 car trains on the Dive Machines, as well as the 1 car Euro-Fighters.
Which do you like... these new-age short trains, or the classic long train?
I personally like the long trains because of increased capacity. But if it's either one long train, or 3 short trains, i would chose the short trains. Basically, whatever is more efficient for the ride is the best.
Comet
10-09-2007, 03:48 PM
I like the short trains.
I personally think they just look better.
Most of the times I build a coaster in RCT I find myself making the trains short. Only exception for me is standard (non-Dive Machine) B&M trains, I like long.
I prefer short trains. They just give the effect of traveling faster, and there is little difference, ride wise, between the front and the back car.
-Alex
MaverickManJZ
10-09-2007, 03:56 PM
Long for capacity and that yank down the first drop.
But short trains can be good too ;)
^ That's why I love the back on Roar at SFDK. :)
Renegade's back car going down the first drop..The whip is incredible.
-Alex
Michael
10-09-2007, 05:19 PM
Honestly, that's not a very good question, because the rides type of rides they are used on differ so much. I mean, comparing a Maverick style train to say Nitro? One has an insanley small curve on it's drop, the other is a 200ft+ mega. Long trains and short just depend on the ride. It's like comparing apples to oranges, I just can't see a way to compare them fairly. Some rides just can't have long trains, others have to.
The Storm Runner
10-09-2007, 05:54 PM
I have to say long trains. It increases the capacity, and it offers different ride experiences. A ride on the front seat of Lightning Racer is a whole lot different than the back. On Behemoth, (which Mike said is the equivalent of 13 regular rows) there will most definitely be a difference. Also, it's just more people to share the awesome fun with. :)
Long. Back Seat and usually car 1-3 on air time machines are amazing. Plus the added capacity is nice too.
While this could be a little subjective, I'm going to say long train. It really depends on the ride, but back rows on coasters with long trains are much better then coasters with short trains.
rollercoasterfreek
10-09-2007, 07:23 PM
I prefer the long trains because the lines should go by faster. If there are more than 5 short trains, I will take the short trains easily.
Michael
10-09-2007, 07:27 PM
I prefer the long trains because the lines should go by faster. If there are more than 5 short trains, I will take the short trains easily.
aka Maverick :p
I prefer the airtime offered by long trains, but it just depends on the ride.
vekoma9
10-09-2007, 07:31 PM
I like long trains better. Like Mavericks trains.......they were alright, but didn't seem comfortable to me. This happened to me with Wicked too. However longer trains have just been giving me a better sensation.
I'm trying to compare and the only short train Ive been on that I can think of would be Griffon, and comparing long V short, I'd go for short.
G-Force!
10-09-2007, 08:11 PM
Without a doubt long trains for me. I love the whip of being in the back and the visuals and ejector air on some coasters in the front. As for short or shorter trains, to me some just feel weird and not right, while others do. Don't ask, but that's just something I have always felt.
jolash
10-09-2007, 08:50 PM
I prefer the long trains because the lines should go by faster. If there are more than 5 short trains, I will take the short trains easily.
What about rides like Griffon... 30 riders per train.
p0tat0
10-09-2007, 09:37 PM
I like em long, hard, and full of adolescent teenagers
^The first sexual comment! I didnt want to be the person to say it first but thankfully you did, and the comment I am about to make is directly what my cousin said when me and her were at Six Flags, we were talking about train lengths actually she said something similar to this, don't remember exact words but:
"I like them longer as they are more fun to ride, plus if the line is short I can ride again and again."
Anyways back on topic, I like longer trains, more whiplash.
^ Oh God...
I prefer longer trains, they look nicer on B&M's especially :). Plus long trains on woodies = heaven.
I can't really compare them, because the trains are set up for the track. You wouldn't put an eight car train on Griffon, and you wouldn't put a three car train on Medusa. It just depends what sort of ride it is. Also, most companies put two seats to a row, while B&M puts at least four. Again, it really depends on the ride/company.
yeah.. It mostly depends on the layout. I would hate Millennium Force if it had short trains. What would Maverick be like if it had trains like Stormrunner.
I really think short trains are better. That way the more trains the less cars and lines would go way faster. ;)
Thrill Reconnoiter
10-10-2007, 01:19 PM
classic long train?
'Classics' never had long trains... unless you mean steel coasters?
I really think short trains are better. That way the more trains the less cars and lines would go way faster. ;)
What does that have to do with capacity? It's all about how many seats you're cycling. Take Goliath (SFOG) and Maverick for example: two long trains vs. six short trains. Same ride duration, but get equal capacity.
Honestly, that's not a very good question, because the rides type of rides they are used on differ so much. I mean, comparing a Maverick style train to say Nitro? One has an insanley small curve on it's drop, the other is a 200ft+ mega. Long trains and short just depend on the ride. It's like comparing apples to oranges, I just can't see a way to compare them fairly. Some rides just can't have long trains, others have to.
Ding! You can't exactly say one is better than the other, because they're tailored per application. If a ride was going function better with a short train, they would've used a shorter train, and vice-versa.
Mike T
10-10-2007, 04:51 PM
I'm not sure how much I've enjoyed both variations of the rolling stock, because both have their awesome qualities, but at the same time, their ******* child like mistakes. I enjoy the difference in push/pull ratio that you find on roller coasters with a longer train, as it makes the ride a completely different experience depending on where you are seated. But at the same time, I really enjoy the fact that smaller trains aren't so much "held back" at the crest of a hill because the latter half of it is lagging somewhere behind you. Again, it all depends on the type of ride experience that a manufacturer wants its guests to experience. The good thing about today's technology is that manufacturers now have the applications to compensate for the shorter train. By putting more block windows around a course, the amount of trains available can be manipulated to influence the higher capacities that are seen on today's mega coasters. This is why Cedar Point can pull of Maverick using 12 riders per train, and the Magic Kingdom can pull of the single most visited coaster on the planet, Space Mountain, with a whopping 6 riders per train.
p0tat0
10-10-2007, 10:35 PM
But at the same time, I really enjoy the fact that smaller trains aren't so much "held back" at the crest of a hill because the latter half of it is lagging somewhere behind youI hate that feeling too. That's why I hate riding in the front, also I think it's quite boring.
adioloco
10-11-2007, 12:27 AM
^ That's why I love the back on Roar at SFDK. :)
You certainly don't crawl over it. You fly off of it! It's great!
That's also why I like long trains. The surprising yank down the drop, hills and other turns.
I hate that feeling too. That's why I hate riding in the front, also I think it's quite boring.
God bless the "pre-drop" ;).
p0tat0
10-11-2007, 02:48 AM
Ugh I hate it^ so boring
What do you mean "so boring"? It's countering what you previously said you hate. Lets be consistent, shall we?
jolash
10-11-2007, 07:33 AM
If you didnt understand what he meant by pre-drop, this is a pre-drop:
http://rcdb.com/ig531.htm?picture=7
It eliminates that "hangtime" given in the front by the pull of the chain on the last cars. The pre-drop allows all or most cars to clear the chain before proceeding down the hill.
p0tat0
10-11-2007, 11:24 AM
What do you mean "so boring"? It's countering what you previously said you hate. Lets be consistent, shall we?You are ridiculous. I hate it because it's boring. Get it now? nub
Your not making ANY sense. You don't like it when it doesn't have a pre-drop, but you don't like it when there is one either? Excuse me for not being able to decipher what your trying to say with these cryptic posts.
p0tat0
10-11-2007, 11:28 AM
Lol. You're a funny guy. I don't like the predrop in the front. In the back I do because of the whip over the top. Ya feel me?
So your basically saying you don't like the front car of a coaster, period? Makes sense now, only took what? 5 posts? :P
p0tat0
10-11-2007, 11:30 AM
Actually just 2 to explain to you.
Mike T
10-11-2007, 02:36 PM
...Anyways...
I find it funny that there are some kiddie coasters out there that seem to have the longest trains in the world. Its literally like a 20 car link and I think it looks rediculous when half the track on the coaster is covered by a train. Its very funny, but at the same time, a bit of an oxymoron lol.
On the contrary, the world's tallest coaster has a 5 car train... Just some food for thought...
Comet
10-11-2007, 03:29 PM
So your basically saying you don't like the front car of a coaster, period? Makes sense now, only took what? 5 posts? :P
I just think he's confused because he doesn't know what a pre-drop is and didn't bother to look at the link Delirium provided.
^Yeah...I wouldn't consider 5 cars short, I think more like 4 should be considered "short".
jolash
10-11-2007, 03:35 PM
No, I think he's just stating that he does not like the front row, and that there are many reasons for that. Two of those being that there is excessive hangtime when there is no pre-drop, and that the pre-drop is boring in the front when one is present.
Comet
10-11-2007, 03:40 PM
Well...I don't think he understands that by pre-drop we mean the thing you pointed out in Apollo's Chariot.
whatever...
Thrill Reconnoiter
10-11-2007, 05:09 PM
^Yeah...I wouldn't consider 5 cars short, I think more like 4 should be considered "short".
Yeah, MF is far from short.
To be completely fair, 'short' should be defined as three cars or less, regardless the number of rows-so three trains with 2x2 layout or three trains with 2x3 layout (http://rcdb.com/ig120.htm?picture=6). Individual trailered would be six rows or less.
p0tat0
10-11-2007, 06:24 PM
No, I think he's just stating that he does not like the front row, and that there are many reasons for that. Two of those being that there is excessive hangtime when there is no pre-drop, and that the pre-drop is boring in the front when one is present.Joel I love you :).
I don't I have ridden a short train ride. I guess MM at DCA counts? I still like the whip in the back at the drop.
RaptorOMGZ
10-11-2007, 09:01 PM
its really hard for me to figure out which one to like better.
it really all depends on the ride that i plan on riding..
i love the longer trains on the bigger drops because when your in
the back your get a bigger "whiplash" effect..
although on maverick i thought there was a whiplash on both
the back and front of the short train. so i think it really all depends
on what ride you are riding..
GhostRider_Rules
10-11-2007, 09:19 PM
Gotta go with long trains. The yank effect is way better = better air :D.
Voyage100
10-12-2007, 01:01 AM
I would say as, the long trains for big airs, the short ones for the huge looper that will make you feel so scared, plus its type train gets momentum so easier to go up through the huge elements. That's why B&M loopers are really popular, I guess.
'Classics' never had long trains... unless you mean steel coasters?
What does that have to do with capacity? It's all about how many seats you're cycling. Take Goliath (SFOG) and Maverick for example: two long trains vs. six short trains. Same ride duration, but get equal capacity.
Ding! You can't exactly say one is better than the other, because they're tailored per application. If a ride was going function better with a short train, they would've used a shorter train, and vice-versa.
Your right, it has abseloutly nothing to do with capacity. But it just makes more sense though. The less cars the more trains making line move faster.
As for the topic, I still think short trains are better, long trains are just too LONG lmao. It would be nice if maverick had like maybe 5 trains and 3 cars per train.. would make it look sweet. :) (+ lap-bars)
Maverick does have around five or six trains and only three cars per train..
Maverick does have around five or six trains and only three cars per train..
Oops, thought the trains were as long like Storm Runner's. XD. Makes sense though because Maverick's track length is like humungous.
Thrill Reconnoiter
10-12-2007, 08:43 PM
But it just makes more sense though. The less cars the more trains making line move faster.
It's not faster to have shorter trains and more of them.
Two trains at 36 seats a piece (72 seats total) is the same as six trains with 12 seats a piece (72 seats).... The two long trains are way faster. Why? You have to move six trains in and out of the station instead of just two. This requires opening gates, unlocking restraints, checking them, closing gates, dispatching, next train....and so on. That's doing the procedure 300% more than two long trains. On top of that you're ride requires more blocks along the track, and if you don't have them, you're going to stagger. You could have dual stations, but that does require double the staff. Shorter trains aren't necessairly economical if you're looking for capacity, they are simply used because they perform much better on the intended layout.
Quite so... but as for themes go. Just like Maverick's theme is a Horse, so it makes sense having 3 cars/train and more trains.
How so? It would make more sense to me if it were only one car per train..
How so? It would make more sense to me if it were only one car per train..
So you mean just a car. Not all coasters can be a wild mouse.. j/k lol. :p But anyways like I said, theme is good. :)
Mike T
10-13-2007, 12:02 AM
Quite so... but as for themes go. Just like Maverick's theme is a Horse, so it makes sense having 3 cars/train and more trains.
It has nothing to do with the theme of the ride, more so if a train of (X) length can navigate the turns and dips that were put into the overall design. You have to understand that the longer somebody decides to make a train, the bigger the window of forces is going to have to be throughout the roller coaster, in order to compensate the difference in positive, negative, lateral, and rotational forces. This is why rides such as hyper coasters can accommodate the 13 row trains (see Behemoth), while smaller, more compact rides require shorter trains. Its all dependent upon the design of the ride in the end, and the decision about what kind of train to incorporate in a design is made after the track has been configured. Think of it this way, could you imagine what Fahrenheit would feel like with a 9 car, Millennium Force style train? Physics tells us that a lot of riders in the back 5 rows would probably red out before they get to the valley of the first drop...
It has nothing to do with the theme of the ride, more so if a train of (X) length can navigate the turns and dips that were put into the overall design. You have to understand that the longer somebody decides to make a train, the bigger the window of forces is going to have to be throughout the roller coaster, in order to compensate the difference in positive, negative, lateral, and rotational forces. This is why rides such as hyper coasters can accommodate the 13 row trains (see Behemoth), while smaller, more compact rides require shorter trains. Its all dependent upon the design of the ride in the end, and the decision about what kind of train to incorporate in a design is made after the track has been configured. Think of it this way, could you imagine what Fahrenheit would feel like with a 9 car, Millennium Force style train? Physics tells us that a lot of riders in the back 5 rows would probably red out before they get to the valley of the first drop...
Ugh.. does it really make that big of a deal? Trains are trains.. how would having so many or so many cars on each effect the rides level performance? Speed is all I can think of.
The overall amount of forces is effected by length. You wont experience same amount of forces on Behemoth and Maverick. If you put say Maverick's trains on Behemoth the rider experience would be completely difference. More airtime at one place, less at another.
Ugh.. does it really make that big of a deal? Trains are trains.. how would having so many or so many cars on each effect the rides level performance? Speed is all I can think of.
Umm...take physics, then argue. The length of the trains effect a hell of a lot (see Mike's post, since I don't feel like repeating it).
Yeah I know it effects the force and stuff.. Anyways, why bring Behemoth into this? That ride is'nt even complete yet nor' the park it's in so noone knows how it will be. Although having a mid-break section roughly placed, it almost gives the idea of same length/cars of Goliath.
If you KNOW it affects forces and stuff than why did you say it didn't?
Please, just quit while your behind..
apsterling
10-13-2007, 02:17 PM
Long, as they typically have incredibly short lines- especially with numerous trains (EG California Screamin', 5 trains and 14 Rows = approximately 140 people on ride at a time.) But short also give fun rides- EG Wild Mice :)
If you KNOW it affects forces and stuff than why did you say it didn't?
Please, just quit while your behind..
While i'm behind? Okay.. :p
When coasters hit there first drop, they are using kinetic energy am I right or wrong? Then on it's way down it's gaining potential, so what makes a difference? I only see weight in that matter. If you have a short train or car, the more potential your get because the less weight the car/train is, but the longer/more cars the train is, less potential it will get. Correct me if i'm wrong.
Okay, I will correct you Jeff, because you are wrong.
When coasters hit their first drop, they are using potential energy, not kinetic. The potential is turned into kinetic by the bottom, and when in the middle of the drop, there is some of each. If you have a short train or car, you get the same amount of potential as a long car in theory, without factoring air resistance, friction, and all that jazz. Even in a real world situation, the weight won't make a huge difference on the speed unless the drop is super long. The potential energy comes from the height of the the train and the gravity...gravity is a constant. Therefore, even in a real situation, your results with a heavier or lighter train will be very similar...
p0tat0
10-19-2007, 07:39 PM
m=mass
g=gravity
h=height
v=velocity
mgh=PE
1/2mv^2=KE
mgh+1/2mv^2=E
E stays constant
love physics
rollercoasterfreak91
10-20-2007, 01:42 PM
Anway, I would prefer long trains because you can either hang over the drop or get yanked over it.
Steve K
10-20-2007, 06:54 PM
^I have to agree. I love having the option of either being in the very front of a train to get that stomach-turning look down the drop, as well as getting the extra negative-g's when you are being pulled over the hill faster than the front of the train.
I also enjoy being surrounded by the 20-30 other people on the train. It's like the park itself -- it's nice if you're alone in the park, but at the same time, you're missing the vibe and the experience of the park/ride that you get with being around all the other people.
sirloin
10-23-2007, 02:24 PM
I like long trains on certain rides and short trains on others. For instance, SLC's are plagued by their long trains as you'll notice that when riding up front, there's alot of stop and go action, really making for some awkward pacing. B&M inverts tend to fare better in that respect. However, the long trains make for some great sensations on rides such as Millennium Force that are not as compact. It gives a whole range of extremes depending on where you are sitting.
So on that note, I'm neutral. It's a case-by-case basis, with no universal winner.
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